In the first two parts of this interview with MotoGP Director of Technology Corrado Cecchinelli, we talked about the proposals for changes to the engine specifications to help reduce the speeds of MotoGP bikes, and Cecchinelli explained the perils of having aerodynamics play too big a role in the sport. Those areas will only be decided for the 2027 season however, when the next rules package comes in.
At the moment, we are still in the proposal stage, with Dorna and the manufacturers negotiating a package that will improve safety, with an eye on cost reduction and sustainability. A final set of rules is unlikely to be agreed between Dorna, the FIM, and the MSMA before the end of 2024.
One rule has already been agreed between all three parties, however. From 2024, the MotoGP bikes will have to use fuel that has been sourced from non-fossil sources. In 2024, that proportion will be 40%, with a switch to 100% non-fossil fuels from 2027.
Here, again, the terminology is tricky. At the Grand Prix of The Americas, I spoke at some length with Tomek Young of Mobil 1, KTM's technical partner for fuel and oil. Mobil 1 are creating synthetic fuels and lubricants on a molecular basis, combining chemicals in special processes to create fuels and lubricants tailored at very specific needs. Lubricants are especially interesting for KTM's MotoGP project, with the more stable oils Mobil 1 created for KTM allowing them to run the RC16 at higher temperatures without losing power due to friction, and producing a 1% gain in power due to reduced friction.
Mobil 1 are working on assembling fuels almost atom by atom, and are using carbon sourced from various processes to create the hydrocarbon molecules which engines burn as fuel. Mobil 1 are using so-called non-fossil carbon sources, which is basically taking carbon from products which were not extracted from the ground by drilling or mining.
There are several different sources of carbon for fuel. There is fossil fuel, the oil and gas produced from fossilized plant and animal remains. There are plant-based fuels, such as ethanol, produced from sources such as corn or plant waste. And there are fuels produced by capturing carbon dioxide from the air and turning it back into hydrocarbons using energy-consuming chemical processes.
The objective of MotoGP's new fuel rules is to use carbon-neutral fuel. That is, to not use fuel extracted from fossil sources. That would allow the use of fuels produced using plant-based sources, or fuels produced using carbon captured from the air. Policing that is somewhat difficult, as the easiest way to check what a particular hydrocarbon fuel is made of is by checking the ratio of different carbon isotopes.
Fossil fuels and plant fuels have different ratios of carbon-14 and carbon-12. C-14 is produced in the stratosphere by cosmic rays and is radioactive, decaying over time, so fossil fuels have no C-14 as they have been stored underground for millions of years. Plant fuels have small amounts of C-14, as plants capture C-14 from the atmosphere.
Fuels created by carbon capture, however, are more complicated. They use the carbon captured from the air, much of which has come from carbon dioxide emitted as a result of the burning of fossil fuels. That means it is very difficult to tell the difference between fuels created from fossil sources, and fuels created from carbon captured from the air.
Sustainable fuels
Cecchinelli prefers the term 'sustainable fuels' for this reason. The point is for MotoGP manufacturers to learn about the intricacies and complexities of using fuels which were created without drilling up the remains of dead dinosaurs (mostly phytoplankton and zooplankton, to be more pedantic). And for fuel suppliers to experiment with ways of producing hydrocarbons in a carbon-neutral way.
After the announcement of the switch to sustainable fuels in 2021, in a previous interview with Cecchinelli, he had mentioned that he expected the sustainable fuels to have a measurable impact on performance, at least once fuels were 100% sustainable. Progress in that area has been rapid, as the world has focused a lot of scientific and engineering effort into producing these fuels.
"That's normal," MotoGP's Director of Technology responded when I put that to him. "First thing to say is that it was expected not to make a big difference, or any difference at all with 40%, but we expect to still make a difference with 100% sustainable fuel. This is the first point to mention. Second point is you're right in saying that at the moment, it is to be expected that the 2024 fuels will make basically no difference when compared to today, but what if not? You don't know."
With the current state of technology, sustainable fuels won't be making the bikes any faster in 2024. "It's reasonable to say that there will not be any increase in performance because of fuel next year, which is something that we could not count on if all was like today. So for me it's still something to be guaranteed that there will not be an evolution for fuels in next year."
Cecchinelli addressed the matter of policing that 40% sustainable fuel content by pointing to the complexities involved. "I know and can tell you what we are doing in '24. I'm not sure this will apply in '27, or I'm pretty sure it won't. So what we are doing is this: at some point, you have to say what you mean by sustainable fuel, and once you've done that, you have to say how you measure sustainability."
You have to start from a basic definition, he explained. "So first of all, a sustainable fuel for us is a fuel that has an imposed fraction that doesn't come from oil refining. This is our definition of sustainable. Which is not obvious or trivial. So it is already a statement. We mean a fuel that is, partly or fully from 2027 not obtained by refining oil. This is the definition. Then, you have to ensure that is done."
Policing now and then
From 2024, policing will be done by analyzing the ratio of carbon isotopes, Cecchinelli said. "For this first step, there was an initial statement of 40% of the fuel shall be sustainable. Which again you have to put in numbers, because what does that mean? So the physical translation is, 40% of the total carbon content shall contain C-14 which is young carbon. Which, in principle and in practice is not coming from oil, or fossil sources. So let's say, it's not from fossil origin."
Fuel samples will be checked to ensure they contain the levels of C-14 you would expect to find if made from sustainable carbon sources, Cecchinelli explained. " We are checking the amount of C-14, and ensuring it matches 40% or above of sustainable fuels. This is what we are doing in '24, without any other prescription." Where that fuel comes from will not be checked. "So it can be achieved by a bio fraction, it can be achieved by a synthetic fraction, it can be achieved by a mix of both. And whatever. Anything else is open."
There is a major drawback to verifying using C-14 content, however: it heavily favors the use of plant-based feedstock over carbon-capturing. "The problem with this definition, which is not a deal breaker in '24, but I think will be in '27, is that by just saying that, you make it easier to use biosources, because they contain only the young carbon. Whereas if you make a synthetic fuel, it all depends on where do you take the carbon from? Because if you take it from car exhaust - which is noble, if you want, you most probably will end up with old fossil carbon."
The objective of MotoGP's push toward sustainable fuels is to prove that internal combustion engines powered by fuel from non-fossil sources can work, even in such an extreme environment as racing at the very highest level. The objective is to help develop a drop-in replacement for fossil fuels, one which does not add carbon dioxide to the atmosphere. Fuel made from bio feedstock is one option, but not the only one. For example, extracting carbon from already emitted CO2 and turning it into fuel again is a very useful way of remaining carbon neutral. Introducing a system of verification which inherently favors fuels from one sources runs counter to that.
Cecchinelli explains: "So if you are taking, for example, from the air, for instance, which is the best way for the environment, the best thing you can do is go from a car exhaust and take it from there. You must probably take fossil carbon, which would be ruled out if we say 100% must be young carbon."
Capturing previously emitted carbon would be one of the most positive ways of achieving net zero emissions. "I even go to the extent to say that that would be the best thing you could do! If you can capture carbon from old fossil fuels that is the best option," Cecchinelli insists.
Nothing is set yet, as the rules are still to be defined for 2027 and beyond. "I don't have any answer yet, but I think in 2027, we will have to say something like, it is forbidden to have any fraction of fossil origin. So you have to prove that either it comes from biosources, or from synthetic origin," he says. "This is a step I think we need to do, we will have to do. Because otherwise, it is not fair between the two concepts, and it is not respecting the choice of the fuel supplier."
Trusting the process
Verifying that fuels are compliant is going to be much more difficult, Cecchinelli explains. Testing for C-14 is already a step beyond what the FIM does for existing fuels, and lab testing may prove impossible for fully synthetic fuels made from captured carbon. "I can tell you that C-14 testing is more complicated than what we are doing at the moment, so not all the laboratories can do that. So it requires a little more effort."
In the long run, Cecchinelli is open to using self-certification for the fuels being used. Under this scheme, fuel suppliers would certify that the process they use to produce the fuels does not include fossil fuel sources, despite containing some amount of "old" carbon as a result of the carbon capture process.
Because of the complexity and scale of fuel production, it does mean that there has to be trust in the process of self-certification. "Somehow you have to ensure that self-certification actually proves something," Cecchinelli says, before pointing out the size of the players involved and the reputational risk involved in being found cheating. "It is my opinion that considering the big players we are talking about, nobody will be cheating with the self-certification. But of course, one thing is laboratory testing, one thing is self-certification."
Why is MotoGP looking at sustainable fuels, when the series already has MotoE, racing electric bikes powered by electricity generated as far as possible from renewable sources? "The reason why I personally and we as a sport are keen on working on fuels is to show the world, to prove that there is an alternative," Cecchinelli says.
There has to be an alternative to relying on electricity for everything, he insists. "For me, the world should realize there are alternatives because it is not true that we could all go on electricity. This is simply not true. If it was like today, nobody could get home tomorrow after leaving the paddock. So that must be understood."
This is something which Ducati CEO Claudio Domenicali brought up at the Ducati MotoE presentation in the summer of 2022. Domenicali, as part of the European motorcycle manufacturers assembled in ACEM, has made representations to the European Commission to extend the use of combustion engines after the planned ban from 2035. Together with pressure from German automakers, this has met with partial success.
"Claudio is a very smart guy, and a very good friend of mine," Cecchinelli says. The Italian left Ducati at the end 2011 before joining Dorna to become Director of Technology. "So I'm sure he also agrees that if you replace digging oil with digging special materials for batteries, and are also forced to scrap a perfectly functional internal combustion-powered vehicle ahead of time, you are doing nothing good for the environment. Then there is the challenge of generating and distributing all of the electrical energy required to fully replace internal combustion with electricity. So we strongly believe and I personally strongly believe in proving there's something else we could do."
This is important because MotoGP is bigger than just 22 motorcycles racing on track. The footprint of a MotoGP event includes getting the bikes to and from the event, everyone needed to make it happen, and everyone at home watching. The goal is to have an impact on the wider world, by helping make sustainable fuels a viable prospect.
"Reducing the event footprint is good, but this is nothing," Cecchinelli points out. "Because the easiest way to reduce pollutions for MotoGP events would simply be not to race MotoGP, you know? That would be easy. If you just delete the event."
Beyond MotoGP
Abandoning MotoGP altogether would be to miss an opportunity to have a much wider impact beyond just the racing, however. The objective of MotoGP's switch to sustainable fuels is to allow petrochemical companies and vehicle manufacturers to test carbon-neutral fuels and the vehicles which run on them. MotoGP is supposed to be a hotbed of engineering R&D, which will filter down into consumer applications.
That has happened many times before with technologies developed in MotoGP. Michelin's dual compound road tires were developed in grand prix motorcycling. Engine allocation rules mean that engines now last 1200km instead of 300km, and the lessons learned there have passed down to production engines. Combustion efficiency, fuel efficiency is learned in MotoGP. HRC's former Vice President Shuhei Nakamoto told me that one thing Honda learned from MotoGP was throttle and engine response at partial throttle openings, which is where most motorcycles on the road spend rough 99% of their time.
So the knock-on effects of switching to sustainable fuels have massive potential. "We are proud to say that we would like to overcome the event footprint by thousands of times, by promoting technologies for the future," Cecchinelli insists. "Okay, we are burning 20 liters of fuel per rider. But we are proving you can make a very good engine running on a fuel that doesn't come from fossil origin."
The risk is that short-term harms are weighed more heavily than long-term benefits, Cecchinelli says. "Sometimes we are I think blamed for silly things like, okay, but your trucks use a lot of fuel to move from one track to another... Yes, okay, it's just like saying that you should shut university laboratories because they have the lights on all night studying. I mean, it's the cost of the development, but if the result is something like for instance, as I said, proving that you can run on fuels have a neutral or negative carbon balance over the complete cycle. I mean, this is a huge statement, even if you had to move a truck to prove that."
Though the short-term change to the MotoGP rules is for the bikes in all three classes to be running on carbon-neutral fuels, that is only part of the story of MotoGP's decision to pursue this objective. The bigger reason behind all of this is to play a part in creating a sustainable future.
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Comments
Very interesting series
Thanks for that, David. Nice to see somebody speaking realistically about electricity, as well.
In reply to Very interesting series by larryt4114
Future article: MotoE & Ducati update?
Hi David: idea for post-season content — an update on Ducati's first year in MotoE.
Much bigger environmental impact possible
…if mgp mandated transport and on sites also use carbon neutral fuels, which is immediately achievable using bio diesel and bio jet. The science project is interesting but if they really want to be “green” emissions from these sources dwarf the bikes by orders of magnitude.
In reply to Much bigger environmental impact possible by slfish
The real energy sinks are…
The real energy sinks are the people sitting at home watching. A few million TVs and servers streaming content to devices will eat up megajoules like they are going out of style.
Edited to add: this is one problem which is often discussed in connection with sustainable fuels. Where do you draw the line? Everyone agrees that the feedstock used to produce the fuel has to be from a non fossil source. But what about the fertilizers that were used to grow the plants that were turned into biofuels, for example? What about the steel that the storage tanks used to store the fuel in, do you count that if coke was made to produce the steel? Do you count the security guard at the plant who drove to the plant in a car using fossil fuels?
Arguments about this quickly lapse into the area of how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
However, the main objective for MotoGP is to prove that you can run an ordinary combustion engine on carbon-neutral fuels. The lessons learned and technology developed there can then be used in production vehicles, making a societal switch to combustible fuels generated from non-fossil sources possible. Of course, what MotoGP can't do is create the political will to ensure that change happens.
In reply to The real energy sinks are… by David Emmett
Re: Drawing the Line
I happen to be involved in preliminary engineering for a clean hydrogen production facility in the US. One of the main drivers to receive the US clean energy tax credits is a low overall carbon footprint. Argonne National Labs in the US defines what you do and don't have to take into account to meet the US's clean hydrogen requirements. They consider emissions for items outside the direct production infrastructure (In David's case fertilizers, storage tanks, coke in the steel, security guards, etc.) to be "embodied emissions." They specifically exclude embodied emissions for just the reason David brought up: Where do you draw the line? Argonne Labs' stance is that you can't draw the line in a practical sense, so embodied emissions are ignored for US DoE clean energy benefits. In my case that means we include operational emissions of the plant once it's up and running, but ignore emissions generated during the construction of the plant and the production of the raw materials, equipment, piping, etc. used within the plant.
I'm less familiar with the distribution side of things (i.e. where my product goes after it's loaded in a truck at the facility). I'm pretty certain that the transportation emissions are included in some/most/all(?) scenarios, but I haven't had to delve into that side.
US legislation is still being developed and answers to what constitute embodied emissions may still change. I'd be interested to know what governs Dorna's sustainable fuel definition. EU law?
In reply to Re: Drawing the Line by Dirt
Embodied fossil emissions?
An observation: By the Argonne definition (ignore emissions generated during ...production of the raw materials), emissions from fossil fuel production would also be embodied emissions. Interesting.
In reply to Embodied fossil emissions? by slfish
Correct. We do not have to…
Correct. We do not have to count emissions produced during the natural gas well construction, natural gas pipeline construction, plant equipment fabrication, site preparation, etc. That includes diesel used to run excavators, drilling machines, etc. Fuel used to fire steel furnaces. "Dirty" electricity used to power foundries. Fuel used to transport equipment from Asia/Europe to North America, or from port to site. Etc.
In reply to Correct. We do not have to… by Dirt
Wow
Get out of jail free..
In reply to Wow by Riesjart
Don't lose site of the…
Don't lose site of the benefits. For the plant described above, all the CO2 created converting natural gas to hydrogen is captured and sequestered in a CO2 well, and for the downstream products created on site from the hydrogen produced on site, a large portion of the power required is generated carbon free using the hydrogen produced on site as fuel. The total CO2 sequestered amounts to greater than 600,000 tons/yr.
There are, perhaps, one or two dozen similar clean hydrogen plants in various planning stages in the US due to the US's clean hydrogen hub push. The fertilizer business is huge, globally, and much of this fertilizer is crated in a similar process beginning with natural gas converted to hydrogen. If each of these production facilities converted to equipment that captured the CO2 generated during the natural-gas-to-hydrogen conversion, literally millions of tons/yr of CO2 currently being emitted to atmosphere could be captured and sequestered. The only thing required is $$$ (hundreds of millions per conversion, or 1-2 billion per new plant) and political will.
Baby steps. Baby steps and time. Baby steps and time and $$$. Baby steps and time and $$$ and political will.
But most of all $$$.
In reply to Don't lose site of the… by Dirt
Recycled jet fuel
^ Great dirt on the clean energy Dirt! ***** Nice to see such a project.
A small start up near me was making jet fuel from nothing but post consumer plastic recycling (see also ocean between USA and China). Off gasses fueled the process. Only output was non potable but clean enough to use/release water. At the time I was bio diesel only for my car, and deeply excited and hopeful.
Economy of scale ceiling, lack of public support, artificially low dino diesel, oil barrel prices fell, and it just...didn’t grow.
:(
In reply to Don't lose site of the… by Dirt
Fascinating
Thanks a lot for the insight. Very interesting to hear from people on the ground.
Electricity
If you want to produce sustainable fuels, you need some form of sustainable energy for the production process. The fuel itself becomes an energy carrier instead of an energy source. The energy source for sustainable fuels are some form of renewable carbon, green hydrogen and green electricity. The efficiency of fuel production is a fraction of the efficiency of a battery electric motorcycle... Ie in order to use 1 Joule of sustainable fuel energy you have to produce approx 2,5 - 4 J of electricity. For batteries this is about 1.1 - 1,5 J. So the assumption that sustainable fuels are an alternative to batteries is simply not true. Never mind the other emissions that are caused by the combustion of fuels.... The future of mobility is electric...
In reply to Electricity by Riesjart
Yeah the not being able to…
Yeah the not being able to go 100% electric is a myth. Yes, it would be true if the entire paddock turned up with EVs with no notice, let's assume that's not going to happen. It is the same bullshit argument folks make about " what happens if fhe entire country tries to charge at once" - the same thing that happens when people panic and all try and buy Dino juice at the same time - the system shits itself.
As battery density increases I assume there will be a tipping point like there was with two to four stroke.
Getting the transportation moved to EV would be the first sensible step towards sustainability.
In reply to Yeah the not being able to… by jonoabroad
747’s
Used to be 3 747’s give it take to transport the circus to from the flyaway races, unfortunately EV 747’s only exist in peoples dreams…
In reply to 747’s by Dieterly
At the moment there are no…
At the moment there are no long range jets, however that will change, there will be alternative fuels and other steps before electric cargo planes.
This doesn't mean it's not worth thinking about now and planning for, electrons are a fuck of a lot easier to ship than liquid based fuels, most if not all of which usually require huge amounts of energy to refine and then transport.
Most of the arguments against Evs are daily mail levels of intelligence and reasoned thinking, and have been disproved.
In reply to At the moment there are no… by jonoabroad
Biojet.
Already exists. Don't need electric planes.
In reply to Biojet. by slfish
747
International shipping and aviation will probably be the last sectors that will be electrified and my assumption is that that will not happen during our lifetime. If we want to continue with them, and I imagine we do, then those are the only sectors that need biofuels or synthetic fuels to become climate neutral. It would be wise to reserve all the bio based fuels for those. And use the rest of the bio based carbon for building purposes.
In reply to At the moment there are no… by jonoabroad
Hey there! Blimpy boi!
I am already making plans to exist on a solar-powered blimp lair, I shall be ominously floating silently overhead before the first half of this century is done.
In all seriousness though, investing time, effort and research into alternative energy sources and methods of employing them might solve all sorts of profound socio-economic problems. I think i’m paraphrasing Buckminster Fuller who said if we could harness the energy contained in one cubic meter of air all of humanity’s problems are solved and we can get on with answering more interesting questions.
In reply to 747’s by Dieterly
Electric Jet Engines
Dreams are slowly approaching reality.
https://thedebrief.org/revolutionary-new-electric-ejet-motor-could-signal-a-breakthrough-in-electric-propulsion-for-aviation/
<tongue-in-cheek>
Add some solar panels to the top side of the wings and Bob's your uncle. :)
</tongue-in-cheek>
Prototypes
And imagine the amount of road bike innovations the switch to electric motorbikes could provide
In reply to Prototypes by Riesjart
It will be amazing, Ducati…
It will be amazing, Ducati are in early so they get a head start.
Look at Koenigsegg and the Axial Flux Motor company Mercedes recently purchased for where motor advances are cureently.
Dunno who are at the forefront of batteries, but if even a few of the advances folks are talking about come off, then we'll be in a position to have full length races with equivalent if not lighter bikes.
To me it is obvios."They"…
To me it is obvious."They" are attempting to slowly but surely move as year by year to a total electric "motorcycle" racing world. No more combustion engines. Bah That is the time I will turn my back on it. I have zero interest in these two wheeled pieces of bore. The sound of a milk float without the range No thanks.
In reply to To me it is obvios."They"… by Karelwhuis
Got it
Totally agreed. Happily continue with my vintage motorcycle racing as long as it exists. I've ridden a couple of electric bikes and thought they were amazing ... until you consider the range (pretty much zero unless you live in a big city), not to mention the ridiculous charging times and lack of charging points.
In reply to Got it by larryt4114
Fueling stations
Did not exist when the first cars were built 😀
In reply to Got it by larryt4114
It's 1910....
... and automobiles are :
In short: the invention of the devil.
Infrastructure is non-existent
So, we've managed the refinement and adoption of other wicked contraptions before : -)
In reply to It's 1910.... by Merlin
Thank you for writing this!…
Thank you for writing this! The overwhelming dominance of fossil fuel powered automobiles is a reality we humans have constructed, intentionally. These are not inherently superior technologies (just low hanging fruit for energy density). We've invested over a century of research and development as a species to get to where we are. Imagine where we can go from here!
In reply to It's 1910.... by Merlin
yeah right
Don't let the facts get in the way of a good story.
You're confusing 1900 with 1910. Ford alone had bulit 29,000 plus model Ts by 1910
There were 141 miles paved roads in 1904 The 1 mile asphalt road was built in 1870, etc etc
Merlin eh. Wave your wand and create your own reality.
And your point was, btw ?
In reply to yeah right by brettak
Be open to new ideas
I just think we should be open to new ideas. Can you imagine what Henry Ford was up against in those first few years?
great interview series
Thanks for sharing this fascinating interview series.
The point here isn't to solve the world's pollution or energy needs. The specific goal in mind is to prove ICE-powered racing motorcycles can be run, and raced, on a sustainable fuel source. That's a commendable, somewhat challenging-but-achievable goal.
Aside from that, it would be nice to see the entire paddock circus set a goal of reducing their transportation footprint, if for nothing more than to set an example. Of course, we are all partly to blame for the world's pollution, so we each must do our part to make things right.
Getting back to sustainable racing fuel (and/or lubricants?), because this is very interesting and goes beyond just designing a new engine configuration or playing with aerodynamics, and because I think this is the point that is getting lost a bit in translation. This push to sustainable racing fuel depends on chemical engineering beyond the scope of racing teams. The way I see it, most/all of the R&D won't even be taking place within the motorcycle manufacturers, but at the petrochemical companies (BP, ExxonMobil, Aramco, et al). The racing teams and motorcycle manufacturers are partners in that they will test out the products the petrochemical companies develop, and adapt their machines accordingly. It is great to see MotoGP pushing for these sustainable fuels, but I think it would be nice to have more clarity on how much back and forth is actually taking place between racing paddock and the petrochemical R&D labs.
All of which is to say, is there a good reason not to just introduce a spec fuel and do away with messiness of certifications/testing?
Energy source and drive type is the most interesting
This series is another piece of Emmettness.
I have a leaning towards a multi-fuel future and I suspect it will partly be liquid biofuels that permit IC engines to continue, perhaps frozen at the current 200-300hp/litre that still wastes a lot of the energy in heat. Hydrogen has lots of attractions and although not as efficient as electric conversion for traction or heating and cooling in buildings (another big energy and carbon user) the all-electric future is perhaps 100 years away I suspect. E everything needs an awful lot of basic infrastructure and the replacement of billions/trillions of systems that currently use other stuff. We just do not have the educated and trained people or wherewithal to do that by 2050 IMO. As mentioned here it is not just the end use that presents challenges and has huge implications.
Carbon neutrality or negative carbon operation of the planet to wind back planetary CO2 levels requires several tipping points to be reached and it all comes down to little old us as individuals making decisions about how much carbon we are allowed or can afford. Expect rules, taxes, and tough personal choices. Possible is much different to probable and definite has a very low conversion rate. Freedom to make your choices and AI might just keep this show on the road. But remember what has happened to the original circus and Mr. Barnum.
Meanwhile, enjoy!
Pure prototype electric racing
My best friend posed the idea that the “E” series should be the battle ground of innovative vehicle dynamics: 2 wheels, electric power. Those are the only rules. Allow engineers to go digging into the most arcane and esoteric corners of the Devil’s toy box in pursuit of lap time or race pace and watch all the epic experiments pour forth from incredibly creative individuals.
Leave ICE as the traditional arena of the motorised pugilist and allow the technical arms race to blossom in another domain.
Edit: Where the hell is the Mugen E-bike?! All that RnD and it’s gathering dust somewhere at the back of an industrial unit. It’s a crying shame they're not lining up against Ducati next year.
In reply to Pure prototype electric racing by ehtikhet
Historic 1st Ebike vs ICE racing
Folks may wish to see the 1st racing between gas and Ebike in the USA this Season. If you haven’t, "Super Hooligans" - very fun new formula includes Stefano Mesa on an Energica vs a diverse bunch of no fairings drag bars bikes. KTM Duke 890R w Andi Dibrino is my favorite, and he is local. Great guy. Wiley not-yet-old N Irishman Jeremy McWilliams, who developed the big KTM, is out there up front on a crazy American 1200.
Watch the Ebike at the start here at 2023 Laguna Seca for a moment, full torque from stand still holeshot. It is heavier and loses out in the twisties. Enjoyable contemplation, and...historical significance. In some races this year it was just behind the front pack and I believe Mesa got it on the podium? And/or just missed out. Thought you folks in this discussion might enjoy!
:)
Race 2 4mins highlights (Race 1 may have had a better start from Mesa, but only finding full race video avail).
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2QhD6eZzRVw&t=2s&pp=ygUgMjAyMyBsYWd1bmEgc…
Found it! 1st time ever Ebike leading a race, start of Race 1 (4 to 5 min highlights). Commentators very interested.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fR57mPdCw2o&pp=ygUgMjAyMyBsYWd1bmEgc2VjYS…
Of technical interest? Red flag restart in Race 1, significantly poorer start for the Ebike. I think HEAT hinders the E motor peak power relative to the ICE?
In reply to Historic 1st Ebike vs ICE racing by Motoshrink
Heat
of racing in this case I think. I noticed they were expecting Mesa this time and shut the door onhim. And twisties: these electric motors are linear driven at the moment (no torque pulses). We have had some interesting firing intervals in ICE racing the last decades. Anybody know what we could do with torque pulses in electric motors? Any traction gains to be found there?
And remeber battery and motor development for cars and motorbikes are at the start of their development cycle. Toyota is expecting a 4-fold increase in energy density by 2027 (compared to current production Tesla batteries). Looking at current motorbikes: Zero SR/F has an urban range of approx 240km at 223kg. I would imagine the batteries taking up at least half of those kgs. So: 120 kg for 240km will become 60kg for 480km (and 167kg for the motorbike)....how's that?
Thank You * 2
Thanks for this illuminating (and ruminating) article series, David (and those who commented throughout, too.) Also, MANY thanks for the bike photos distributed throughout each article!
Extracted resources - a false equivalence
Another superb interview, and another set of ... interesting comments from a very intelligent reader base. I love the variety of perspectives, and I don't think there are any idiots commenting on this site... but there's definitely some false equivalence and other logical fallacies floating around.
I defer to Mr. Cecchinelli on most matters related to internal combustion. But I find his arguments against an electrified future borderline foolish. Merlin's "It's 1910...." comment is absolutely correct.
Infrastructure to support electric vehicles en-mass was non-existent in 2013. In 2022, 14% of vehicles sold worldwide were electric. Ranges above 200 miles were unheard of in 2013. Now, you can buy (expensive) cars with 400+ mile range, and 200 is considered entry level. Things move fast, and what seems improbable today may be inevitable tomorrow.
Bikes are way behind cars because battery packaging is a pain in the arse. But you know what? I bought my electric dirt bikes in 2019, and I can now order replacement batteries with 5x power delivery, and 2x the range - in the exact same size package. That's fast progress, at the consumer level. Is digging up lithium clean? No - but you also don't burn it as a one-time-use material! Every ounce of lithium delivers energy to do work hundreds and hundreds of times over. Every ounce of burned petroleum gets to deliver energy exactly once. And it converts itself into a gaseous heat blanket for the planet with cruddy health effects for everyone sharing the air nearby. All extracted resources have an environmental impact, but what you do with the end product isn't even remotely comparable.
I feel this argument is weak at best, disingenuous at worst.
In reply to Extracted resources - a false equivalence by 2strokes4mostfolks
Agree on all points. Also…
Agree on all points. Also not to mention he's trusting the same companies that knowingly lied to us for nearly a century about the dangers of oil products, and are the reason we're headed for (or really, are already in) a climate crisis!
In reply to Extracted resources - a false equivalence by 2strokes4mostfolks
Exactly
And we Re getting better and better at recycling lithium and other battery materials all the time and looking for battery chemicals based on commonly available materials.
As humanity, at least for the short term, we need to invest in and start using the most energy efficient reasonable alternative available if we don't want rising seas and extreme weather make large areas of our planet inhabitable. And thereby create large streams of climate refugees (to bring up another related topic 😀). I love motor racing but would like it to become a prototype racing series with a foundation in today's society.