Skip to main content
Home

MotoMatters.com | Kropotkin Thinks

... that new tires might be a bigger deal than new engines

User Menu

  • Log in

Tools

  • Home
  • Subscriber Content
  • Round Ups
  • Features
    • Analysis
    • Interviews
    • Opinion
    • David Emmett's Blog
  • Photos
  • More
    • Search
    • Riders & Teams
    • Calendars
      • 2025 Provisional MotoGP Calendar
      • 2025 Provisional WorldSBK Calendar
    • Championship Standings
      • MotoGP Standings
      • Moto2 Standings
      • Moto3 Standings
      • MotoE Standings
      • WorldSBK Standings
      • WorldSSP Standings
    • Race Results
      • MotoGP Race Results
      • Moto2 Race Results
      • Moto3 Race Results
      • MotoE Race Results
      • WorldSBK Race Results
      • WorldSSP Race Results
    • News
      • MotoGP News
      • WorldSBK News
  • Subscribe!
    • More info about subscribing
  • Patreon
  • Forums
  • Contact

Breadcrumb

  • Home
  • Analysis and Background

Some autorenewing subscriptions have failed to automatically renew. If you find you can't read subscriber articles, or think this applies to you please read this.


Corrado Cecchinelli On The Future Of MotoGP: Part 2 - The Hows And Whys Of Limiting Aerodynamics

By David Emmett | Sun, 05/Nov/2023 - 12:30

In part 1 of this interview with Corrado Cecchinelli, Dorna's Director of Technology, we talked about how his objective for the MotoGP rules package due to come in from the 2027 season was to improve the safety and increase the sustainability of MotoGP by looking at ways to limit performance without restricting the ability for engineers to explore innovative solutions too much, and to create an environment in which R&D in racing transfers more directly to road bikes.

The aim is to make the racing safer without forcing the tracks to make expensive, and sometimes impossible, safety upgrades, and to reduce the risk of crashing at excessively high speeds. The other important aim is to allow ordinary motorcyclists to benefit from the lessons learned by manufacturers in MotoGP.

In part 2, we turned our attention to the most controversial and difficult topic in MotoGP: aerodynamics. Hated by fans, loved by engineers, and often appreciated as useful by riders, it is a subject which divides opinions. But is also very clear that aerodynamics are making it more difficult to overtake, and increasing top speeds and cornering speeds fairly dramatically.

It is a complex subject which requires a very broad approach, Cecchinelli told me. "There are a number of topics relevant to aerodynamics. One, which is very important for us, is that aerodynamics is unfortunately an area where you still have a big return on investment. So if you are a bigger spender, yeah you go faster," he said.

The underlying problem is that the law of diminishing returns is barely starting to kick in for aerodynamics. The rewards for each additional €1 million are still worth making the additional investment, whereas in other areas, the value of that additional investment quickly tapers off. The tipping point for aerodynamics is still some way off.

Aerodynamics have become the new electronics, in this respect. Before advent of the spec ECU and spec electronics, MotoGP manufacturers would just keep throwing electronics engineers at their bikes, to come up with better and better ways of controlling vehicle dynamics. The more engineers you threw at the problem, the faster you went.

Now, MotoGP factories are hiring in more and more outside expertise to research aerodynamics, and everything they learn helps them go that much faster. The more they spend, the faster they go. "Exactly," Cecchinelli said. "So, this is a good reason against it."

It is of course true that development tends to be budget led, and so restricting certain technologies just means that money gets spent somewhere else. But the most important thing is that spending it on aerodynamics has a very direct impact on performance, which is not the case for other areas. "Spending the same money on hospitality is not as effective at making bikes go faster as spending in a wind tunnel, to exaggerate a little," Cecchinelli points out.

There are more important reasons to oppose aerodynamics, chief of which is the fact that the turbulence they create make it that much more dangerous for riders following behind. "The other good reason against it is apparently, based on riders comments, that it affects riders riding behind another rider a lot in a way that is unsafe, because it makes braking point unpredictable, and the bike is shaking, front tire pressure becomes unpredictable, and things like this."

We have seen numerous examples of this. Marco Bezzecchi getting caught in the slipstream of Pecco Bagnaia at Silverstone and crashing out. Alex Marquez getting sucked in behind Brad Binder and Luca Marini on the straight and nearly missing San Donato. "With the slipstream in the braking of Turn 1 it's very difficult. Because also the bike starts to shake a lot and it's very difficult to brake," Luca Marini explained.

Aerodynamics are very much a double-edged sword in that respect, and Mugello provides a very good example of the downsides and upsides. The crest at the end of the straight is a notoriously difficult point, the front wheel going light while flat out in sixth gear, just before the riders have to brake for the first turn.

At Mugello, Red Bull KTM's Jack Miller talked us through it. "You slowly sit up there, but you’ve got to use yourself as a wind breaker as well. It’s not as hectic as it used to be, because the bikes are a bit more planted when you go over the top of the hill, especially when you’re on your own, the bike’s more stable so you’re more focused on trying to hit your braking point, rather than jumping, shaking and then trying to hit your braking point. The thing’s a bit calmer. You can eliminate one of the things you need to focus on and just focus on getting your braking point right."

The aerodynamics helps keep the front wheel on the ground over the crest. "It’s a lot more stable," Miller said, That is if you are riding on your own, however. Riding in a group in the race it became a lot trickier. "But also, you get a lot more of a wind shift if somebody passes you there. You feel it. You’re always going to feel the wind terribly if you’re doing 360 km/h and another bike comes past you at the same speed and buffers you out. To say it’s worse or not, I don’t know. But in terms of stability over the jump and coming into turn one, it’s definitely easier."

When I put these two sides to aerodynamics to Corrado Cecchinelli, he points out the flaw in this argument. "In general, things that change the physical ability of a bike are often 'sold' by manufacturers as something that is beneficial for safety as it makes the bike more controllable, or predictable, or stable, or whatever."

That is a bit of logical subterfuge, Cecchinelli argues. "This is a big misconception. It would be true for a road vehicle, if the speed remained the same, but the vehicle capability higher, which would in turn increase the safety margin. On the road, bikes which are better will still go at the same speeds as before. But that is not true at all in racing, because with a higher physical limit, the rider will eventually go faster and so crash faster."

That, Cecchinelli points out, is always the only reason anything is done in racing. The only changes you make to racing motorcycle are done in an attempt to make it lap the track faster. So aerodynamics may make the MotoGP bikes more stable, but racing is always done at the limit, so rider use that extra stability to go faster. "So, even if the bike was easier to control and more predictable, the result would always be crashing at higher speeds. Maybe the number of crashes will be reduced, but their potential danger is increased as they happen at higher speeds. Do riders crash less often? Difficult to say. Do they crash at higher speeds? Definitely." he says.

With many tracks already on the limit in terms of safety due to bike speeds, any additional speed makes the tracks that much more dangerous. "When track runoff areas are borderline to just enough, like is going to happen soon, then you can’t afford to crash at even just 1 km/h more," Cecchinelli says. "Even if the chance of crashing was less, as crashing just once against the barriers would potentially have much worse consequences than crashing more times with more of a safety margin to the closest runoff object. Plus the potential physical consequences of a crash depend on speed even without hitting a barrier, even if you think about just tumbling through the gravel."

When tracks run out of run off due to high speeds, then the dangers of speed vastly outweigh the benefits of added stability. "The main point is track safety: when speeds are approaching the point where runoff areas are no longer enough, there’s no debating anymore on increasing or decreasing the chances of crashing, as we can’t afford even just one crash against the barriers," Cecchinelli insists. "We have to prefer two crashes that end with the rider still a long way from the wall."

Cecchinelli draws parallels with how other safety factors have evolved. "There is no doubt at all that racing with present riding gear on present tracks with Giacomo Agostini’s MV would be by far less dangerous than doing that with any of the current MotoGP bikes, despite there cannot be any doubt that any MotoGP bike is safer than Agostini’s MV! This is very simply because MotoGP bikes are that much faster than old machines. It’s as simple as that," he points out.

Aerodynamics are not the only technology that have helped MotoGP bikes go faster, of course. But most of those are different to aerodynamics in important ways, Cecchinelli is at pains to point out. "Some of the modern technical features that have been introduced to make bikes go faster, like traction control for instance, don’t have any other drawbacks apart from making the bikes go faster, but things like aerodynamics have a number of unwanted side effects like turbulence and braking unpredictability. Those side effects make their 'safety contribution' much more doubtful and debatable to say the least, despite it maybe being true that machines are more stable when you are riding alone on track. But that unfortunately is not the case in racing."

One argument that some manufacturers make is that the aerodynamics lessons learned from MotoGP are already making their way onto road bikes. More and more street machines now also have wings, think of Ducati's Panigale V4, or BMW's S1000RR, or Honda's CBR1000RR-R. A better understanding of aerodynamics is also helping improve comfort on touring bikes too, Ducati claiming that input from MotoGP has helped optimize the Multistrada V4's wind protection.

Cecchinelli doesn't buy that argument either, pointing to other technologies which are banned in MotoGP. "I understand that, but for me it's not a deal breaker, because road bikes have electronic suspension, automatic gearbox, ABS and everything," he says. "But I can also see the arguments against banning them completely in racing. And, to be honest, I think, they are a good representation of the high end level of technology in MotoGP. Like some sort of exoticness in racing."

The fact that MotoGP bikes are immediately identifiable as as such because of their aero packages are one argument in favor of allowing some form of aerodynamics, Cecchinelli acknowledges, but that doesn't mean aero has to continue in its current, extreme form.

"These are all the arguments, the topics in favor. So for me - and again, this is in our proposal, by the way - the way is to reduce them," Cecchinelli says. "The simplest way to achieve the goal of reducing aerodynamics to a lower extent for me, for us, is simply reducing aero surfaces. Which means we have now sort of dimensions template. Just reducing that. And this is our proposal."

This gets around the awkward question of banning aerodynamics altogether. "I mean something that moves in the air is an aerodynamic object," Cecchinelli points out. Technically, a fairing is an aerodynamic device, as is the speed hump on a rider's leathers. Instead of getting bogged down in philosophical arguments, it is better to define a limit on the amount of aerodynamic surface allowed.

In an ideal world, aerodynamics would be policed by setting limits on the downforce produced at a specific speed. But doing that would be both expensive and impractical. "First of all, because you should have your own wind tunnel," Cecchinelli explains." And then, because it is not possible to take all the racing bikes with all of the rider combinations in that specific wind tunnel to make exactly the same test. And then because you should do that at any change."

Each time a factory updates an aerodynamic package, it would need to be retested. And because each rider is allowed their own aero package, tailored to their height and position on the bike, it would mean an immense amount of testing. "For instance, when Ducati brings the wings on the fork, Aprilia brings the wings on the fork, you should go back to the wind tunnel," Cecchinelli says. "This is not practical. But this is in principle what we want to control by an easier way, which is reducing the surfaces. Because the goal is reducing the downforce."

There are some regions not included in the aerodynamics rules, and there is no real need to change that, the Italian explains. "The reason why they are not defined as aero-relevant regions is because they have a limited effect. So for me, if you are talking about putting winglets on the seat, yes we would like it better if they did not put them, but I don't think that is the problem for braking 15 meters later."

That only really affects a small area of the bike, he explains. "The area which is not regulated is what is in the aerodynamic shadow of the rider. So everything behind the rider. But not the spoon [the swingarm spoiler], the spoon is regulated. So there's really a small portion of the bike, which is basically the seat cowl which we didn't regulate on purpose – which we tried, but MSMA opposed to put a rule on that because they say that that is a part that is deeply related with ergonomics, so it must be free because of the rider's seating position and so on."

That is a compromise that Dorna and the FIM are willing to live with, though even there Cecchinelli sees room for intervention. "So we have to leave it in the understanding that, yes, they can do something there. Not a lot because there's a minimum height, so those sort of wings can't be higher than 1250mm. And by the way, in our proposal that height is reduced."

And what of ride-height devices? Would they also be banned? "This is our proposal," Cecchinelli said. "We really hope so." But so far, these are still just proposals and nothing is yet agreed. The manufacturers still have to agree to the new rules, or come up with counterproposals.

Overall, though MotoGP's Director of Technology is optimistic in the upcoming negotiations with the factories involved in MotoGP. "Consider that we are talking about, I don't know, 20 points, I think that, let's say three quarters of them will be accepted as they are, or they will work on them, but I would expect really few of them will be refused altogether. I think maybe we are proposing down-boring, and that becomes downsizing. Maybe we are proposing to narrow the aero by, I don't remember, 50mm and it will be 40mm. I would expect that very few points will be completely rejected."

The final product, however, should remain distinctively and immediately identifiable as a MotoGP machine, an extreme motorcycle pushing the envelope of engineering and performance. They will still look like exotic racing machines. "Yes, and sound like a racing machine," Cecchinelli adds finally.

In the last part of this interview, we will take a more technical look at how MotoGP will be enforcing the use of fossil-free fuels, and the complexities and complications that entails.


If you enjoyed this article, please consider supporting MotoMatters.com. You can help by either taking out a subscription, supporting us on Patreon, by making a donation, or contributing via our GoFundMe page. You can find out more about subscribing to MotoMatters.com here.

2023
MotoGP
Corrado Cecchinelli
CormacGP
Thomas Morsellino
  • Log in or register to post comments
↑Back to top

Comments

Do we have hard data to make smart decisions?

Merlin
1 year 4 months ago
Permalink

Thank you David for these fantastic interviews - and to all readers for such intelligent conversations built on your work.

How much data does MotoGP have on where and how crashes take place? Cecchinelli refers to the danger of reaching the barriers as an overarching concern. Having watched all the races in recent years, and the many crash replays from multiple cameras, I recall very few riders reaching the barriers. Bikes maybe, but the lower mass of the rider most often stops them well before. The most serious injury I remember in recent years being when Pol Espargaro slid on the hard, compacted gravel into an un-airfenced barrier.

I know this it totally anecdotal, but I recall far more crashes and injuries caused by rider-to-rider contact and highsides, which have little to do with higher top speeds. Seems to me, most incidents are caused by

  • straight-up operator error,
  • rain or fluids on track,
  • aero (turbulence, being sucked into the leading rider’s slipstream under heavy braking, or loss of front traction possibly due to tire pressure regs),
  • dry-track highsides, where a disproportionate number have occurred on the Honda (poor management of power delivery and rear traction electronics?).

I wonder what exists or could be done to collect some statistical crash info parsed into some obvious categories that could shed some light on what fixes would reduce the most serious injuries: 

  • rider reaching the barrier- whatever the cause
  • rider-to-rider contact
  • highsides
  • lowsides

My guess: lower or no aero, and removal of tire-pressure regs would be the main candidates, not mainly by limiting top speed.

  • Log in or register to post comments

In reply to Do we have hard data to make smart decisions? by Merlin

I think they have all data…

WaveyD1974
Site Supporter
1 year 4 months ago
Permalink

I think they have all data including the suit data. The point about riders reaching the barriers is that it must be avoided at almost all costs. It's a hard end limit. We're not there yet but we're getting closer. Do something now ot react after ?

I'd also add, it's a very very rare crash when more speed resulted in better outcomes. Reaching barriers or not, faster means more injuries. As pointed out in the article, the riders get hurt by the gravel traps. Again, no matter what gravel, higher speeds mean a higher risk of injury and more severe injuries.

  • Log in or register to post comments

In reply to I think they have all data… by WaveyD1974

Agreed - but now's a chance to adress many things

Merlin
1 year 4 months ago
Permalink

WaveyD1974 - Agree with your good points. Much of the public/media focus seems almost entirely on the dangers of higher top speed (maybe it's the most interesting media topic). Understandable as long as it's not at the expense of ignoring other more frequent causes of serious injuries. Formulating new regs is a once-in-five years chance to make improvements in multiple areas, needing the big picture.

I hope too, the voice of the riders comes into play before the conversations get too far along. 

  • Log in or register to post comments

In reply to Agreed - but now's a chance to adress many things by Merlin

A higher top speed is a…

WaveyD1974
Site Supporter
1 year 4 months ago
Permalink

A higher top speed is a higher speed the rider may well find themselves needing to stop with or without a bike. It's also a higher speed a bike may hit another bike. It's more energy going somewhere than a slower bike. It only happens once per lap but it's the result of better acceleration and therefore higher speeds are also reached around the lap. Whatever the cause of a crash, whatever the form it takes, low side, high side or triple salchow, the higher the speed when it happens, whatever happens, the worse the result.



I like that the bikes are crazy fast. Faster would be great. Keep the 1000cc and allow turbos...yay !  I'm sat at home watching and the crashes never hurt. A loss of 30-40kph on the Mugello straight will make no difference on TV. As mad as it seems, it is always better to jump from the 95th floor than the 100th floor. 

  • Log in or register to post comments

In reply to Agreed - but now's a chance to adress many things by Merlin

Aero is more than simply Vmax

Seven4nineR
Site Supporter
1 year 4 months ago
Permalink

It's worth noting aero is not just about higher top speeds once/lap but increased speeds everywhere.

Aero is Motogp's DRP (dividend reinvestment plan) where you get returns on your returns: not only are you able to accelerate harder but you accelerate harder from a higher exit speed thanks to ground effect fairngs etc increasing corner speed = compounding the problem.

So every single braking point is arrived at from a higher speed due to aero maximising acceleration, braking zones are shrunk due to aero drag and increasing front downforce, so straights are effectively longer while corners are shorter. Bottom line? Not only are you going faster into a corner, you are going faster deeper which means you are that much closer to the hard stop.

So many negatives with the only positive being increased tax deductions for manufacturer's R 'n R.

 

  • Log in or register to post comments

In reply to Aero is more than simply Vmax by Seven4nineR

Braking and accelerating

ehtikhet
Site Supporter
1 year 4 months ago
Permalink

I have a feeling that apex speeds might well be lower now?

Remember they only broke the motegi lap record this year that stood since JL in 2015 and that’s one of the most stop-start tracks on the calendar. I think they’re getting into and out of corners faster than ever but all that extra load at over 45 degrees of lean is pushing the bike away from the apex.

  • Log in or register to post comments

In reply to Braking and accelerating by ehtikhet

…Hence the fact that FQ and…

ehtikhet
Site Supporter
1 year 4 months ago
Permalink

…Hence the fact that FQ and Yamaha are struggling so much, modern tech is deriving lap pace from minimising the time spent turning and maximising the time spent at peak acceleration, the disparity in acceleration is now too great for any other performance modality to overcome?

 

I remember reading an interview with JL stating that the Ducati was the only bike he’d ridden where it felt like it turned less at maximum lean and if ever there was a man who found pace with corner speed. My interpretation was that the fairly rudimentary aero of the time was causing understeer in some situations.

I’m sure I saw a photo analysis of that corner at Catalunya where they're right over and the bike are noticeably less leaned over than a few years ago.

  • Log in or register to post comments

Round rubbers

LAH
1 year 4 months ago
Permalink

How about reducing the tire width and/or stickiness? I once had a conversation with my NASCAR buddy about how to slow things down at Talladega and Daytona. And I said, put skinny tires on them. They will definitely slow down before they get to the corner!

  • Log in or register to post comments

The push against tech in MotoGP is paradoxical

CTK
Site Supporter
1 year 4 months ago
Permalink

Is it, or is it not a prototype class?

How does it make sense that technology one can go down to the dealer and buy for $20-30K (active suspension, VVT, predictive traction control) should be banned from, rather than homologated into MotoGP?

Against all odds there are tons of great motorcycle racing series out there. BSB in particular seems to be what many want MotoGP to be- simple bikes on which the rider "does all the riding" (as if MotoGP bikes ride themselves). Why make MotoGP more like everything else?

Im not convinced that $$$ is a huge factor either- Suzuki slayed giants on a shoestring budget and the richest factory on the grid is firmly at the bottom of the standings, despite its parent company literally having its own aviation division to lean on for aerodynamics. 

So I feel like we all need to have a moment of clarity around what MotoGP is- a prototype racing series- and do some soul searching around whether that is something we want, rather than fighting to make it something it isn't. I have grown to like all forms of motorcycle road racing literally down to random WERA on boards on Youtube. But IMO MotoGP being a tech bonanza is a distinct component of its appeal, not something to whittle away. Let the engineers play........

  • Log in or register to post comments

In reply to The push against tech in MotoGP is paradoxical by CTK

well said

raffles
Site Supporter
1 year 4 months ago
Permalink

well said

  • Log in or register to post comments

In reply to The push against tech in MotoGP is paradoxical by CTK

Tech and stuff

ehtikhet
Site Supporter
1 year 4 months ago
Permalink

I feel that the sport must also be assessed on another axis or dimension of analysis if you will: as an entertainment product.

The broader commentariat, (nor here so much, this is a tranquil garden of considered discourse in comparison to the raging tyre fire of the vocal online GP fanbase…) appear to view the development of the sport on a purely linear basis: more or less tech exists on exactly the same line as more or less on track action. The two are perfectly inversely proportional in such a facile view. The “tabloid” GP press stoke these fires with reactionary and inflammatory reporting that generates recursive feedback loops of opinion: aero is ruining racing, ride height devices are a step too far etc: welcome to this week’s edition of whats ruining racing.

Remember around 2019 when there was a huge amount of discussion on whether the racing was artificially close because riders had to save all their tyre performance for the last 3 laps? Currently it’s a cycle of front tyre pressure, aero and adjustable geometry and before that it was electronic control strategy.

The more nuanced position is that perhaps recent developments or at least the pace of implementation in said developments has pushed the sport past the point of inflexion so the bike now plays a larger part in performance than the rider. Is that good or bad, should that change be curtailed, slowed down or reversed, what would that look like and how would it be achieved to the satisfaction of all involved?

Regardless of the position held on the above the fact that 3 of the last four champions have struggled to make Q2 all season has an effect on the gravity of the display of skill, to the unenlightened the blame lies at the feet of the current hotbed of visible innovation not at the transformative organisational revolution that Ducati underwent in that same time frame and the inability of the rest of the grid to counter their absolute dedication to championship winning optimisation.

I firmly believe that good racing is an emergent property of personality and position: riders and racetracks make for good racing, the discussion on material is adjacent and intertwined but giving all manufacturers equity to compete at the front is perhaps a different discussion. We used to have concessions to level the playing field, I don’t believe in performance levelling, especially mid season, but there should be a way to achieve parity by FP1 Valencia every year. Extra testing, extra tyres, extra engine homologation opportunities during the season?

The problem there is that for some factories (cough Yamaha cough) MotoGP is a vanity exercise and the destructive effects of their myopic, retrogressive, and conservative attitude has a perfect correlation with the worldview that creates the facile and tiresome arguments of the fanbase.

The MotoGP Godwin’s Law should be any mention of two strokes, “real men” or some variation of traction control in their right wrist etc. Any online discussion about race bike technology will inevitably tend towards some boomer mouthing off about carbs or some other such anachronistic and antiquated technology that was en vogue when riders died crashing into trees and smoked on the grid.

Actually it’s definitely the events that took place somewhere in south east Asia roughly 8 years ago but lets not go there…

 

  • Log in or register to post comments

In reply to Tech and stuff by ehtikhet

Great post and I agree with…

CTK
Site Supporter
1 year 4 months ago
Permalink

Great post and I agree with much of what you say. 100%, ultimately if it's not entertaining it's going to fail, regardless of anything technical or w/e. 

But as you mentioned, there's a very vocal cabal of opportunistic journalists and rage ready "fans" eager to amplify the notion that the sport has lost its way. The most head banging narrative that gained traction IMO was the "aero killed passing" suggestion. Notice how that has died out over the last few races, over which we have seen tons of passing and great on track action. To this day I have yet to see any objective verification of this phenomenon (i.e. a comparison of the # of passes today vs "the good old days"). But it fits the narrative of today = bad and the past = good, so it gets pushed w/o question.

Never mind the obvious fact that the quality of rider today is higher than it has ever been- as I have said countless times before, there are more WCs, race winners and podium finishers on the grid today than any time in the sport. Is that a result of the bikes? Sure, in the sense that the general quality of machinery today is also much higher than ever before with every single factory having achieved multiple wins. But that's a completely different phenomena than "the bikes mattering more than the riders". If that were the case every Ducati rider would average out the same results- they obviously don't. A lot of the most popular takes just don't pass the most basic logical gut check.

I agree 100% that the situation is much more nuanced and multifactorial than people make it out to be. But from my armchair, some simple solutions stick out:

  • Cut the # of race sessions down and increase the # of test sessions.  Michelin has not been able to provide much needed updates to the front tire because they haven't had enough meaningful testing time. Also, some of the rounds on the calendars are consistently boring snooze fests. And IMO sprint races dilute the specialness of race action. Cut down the # of rounds to the same 15-16 or so of "the good old days" with just a traditional Sunday race and replace the other 5-7 rounds with test weekends. Then put sprint races on those test weekends to help monetize them. Done and done, Dorna my invoice is in the mail.
  • Cap power with a spec fuel + fuel flow restriction. This is the cheapest and quickest way to cap power. No need to completely redesign the engine the way a displacement change would require them to.
  • Give concessions in reverse order of the factory finish from the previous year. So whoever finishes last gets the most concessions, regardless of results. Second to last gets a little less. Etc. Concessions can be reassessed over the course of a season (maybe readjust them based on a rolling 12 month sum of points. Rins' win in Austin is meaningless; Honda needs help. Nobody wants to be in a position to have those concessions but having access to them will help keep all factories more competitive.

Truthfully the community around MotoGP has soured the sport for me to a degree but your post was very refreshing. Its good to know there are still some thinkers watching the sport but they seem fewer and further between.

  • Log in or register to post comments

In reply to Great post and I agree with… by CTK

The riders complain about…

WaveyD1974
Site Supporter
1 year 4 months ago
Permalink

The riders complain about the lack of passing, that race position is largely determined by grid position which leads to extra pressure at the end of practice sessions or Q1/Q2 and to do something...anything at T1, that it's very hard if not impossible to pass, that the dirty air can play dangerous tricks. There's a dearth of last lap passes for the lead. Maybe it's all just a statistical anomaly but the irrational press seem to have reached a consensus. The last few races have turned out good because of tyre wear. Less power and same or even better chassis performance makes even that less likely. 

  • Log in or register to post comments

In reply to The riders complain about… by WaveyD1974

Repeating the same consensus…

CTK
Site Supporter
1 year 4 months ago
Permalink

Repeating the same consensus tropes over and over doesn't turn them into facts. If there's a "dearth of last lap passes" where is the objective proof? Let alone the causal link showing that decline is directly caused by the popular scapegoat of tech, and nothing else, like the much higher overall talent level on the grid, and the increased parity of bike on the grid (which was reached well before aero/shapeshifters reached their fever pitch). Are you really going to sit here and tell me that CRT bikes and pay riders like Tito Rabat didn't make it "easier" to pass in the good old days? A lot of the complaints around MotoGP center around mob rule ("consensus") and rose tinted nostalgia.

  • Log in or register to post comments

In reply to Repeating the same consensus… by CTK

Same same. Different…

WaveyD1974
Site Supporter
1 year 4 months ago
Permalink

Same same. Different comclusions also no data. I did actually post something last year. I parsed all the sector times across the years, from the pdf files on the motogp website, looked for any swap of position sector to sector, did not include passes caused by dnf and excluded all passes if the passed rider dropped more than 3 places in an attempt to exclude run offs. Can't remember what the results were, good luck finding it. I just had a quick look at my activity and instantly gave up. Nobody noticed it which isn't surprising because it's fairly boring. They were too busy talking riders.

I think the main point is that we are expressing opinions. 

  • Log in or register to post comments

In reply to Same same. Different… by WaveyD1974

Stats

ehtikhet
Site Supporter
1 year 4 months ago
Permalink

I’m going looking for it, that sounds fascinating.

For all that a broad appeal of the sport is hardcore engineering and application of science there is a distinct lack of statistical analysis in commentary and op-ed. I had much the same thought concerning Aleix’ comments on passing, aero, and tyres over the last two seasons: he’s very vocal and prone to excessive hyperbole in interviews. When he says, for example: “passing is impossible, the front tyre is dangerous etc etc” I want to be able to look at a range of stats that show a slump in his passing potential against career averages or counter his statements by showing that he’s always just been crap at overtaking, always finishes lower than grid position or rarely gains a position when he’s within 0.5s of a rider in front regardless of technical regs.

There are many sports that have insanely deep levels of publicly available data on athlete and team performance which the inventive pundit can use to create narratives on illuminating and subtle areas of the sport they love to elevate the understanding of how and why it’s great.

It poses a question, what would the key stats for a rider’s performance be? What does it mean, in quantifiable terms, to be a “Sunday man”? Who is the most “clutch”? Who is the most ruthless? Who is the cleanest passer etc etc: “MM is the best at left handers” ok, cool. Show me the split times, apex speeds and lean angles of the 5 fastest longest left handers on the calendar and let’s actually see it.

I’ve been thinking about this for years and I’m out of work at the moment so maybe I should crack on and try to codify and develop some of this stuff, just need Dorna to give me access to ALL THE DATA FROM EVERY SESSION EVER and an Msc in data science…

Surely the teams are looking at performance on the nano-granular level, I want that too.

 

  • Log in or register to post comments

In reply to Stats by ehtikhet

I looked into this myself…

CTK
Site Supporter
1 year 4 months ago
Permalink

I looked into this myself and Dorna actually does have APIs to access MotoGP data. What I don't know is how much it costs or how easy it is to parse out. But even a simple analysis of P1 vs P2 changes over the last 5 laps of every race over the last 20 or so years would be illuminating. It's probably at the bottom of my list of priorities and projects though.

  • Log in or register to post comments

In reply to I looked into this myself… by CTK

There's already someone…

David Emmett
Site Supporter
1 year 4 months ago
Permalink

There's already someone working on access to the various PDFs and the underlying API. You can find the project here,  it's quite interesting.

https://mgp-timings.teknichrono.fr/swagger-ui/

The results API is also exposed, and I use it in scripts to produce the results on the website.

  • Log in or register to post comments

In reply to There's already someone… by David Emmett

Ooooh

VersionBen6999
Site Supporter
1 year 4 months ago
Permalink

That API related website me wonder if someone smarter than me (of which I am sure there are many) can make something similar to what exists for F1 that I could deploy in my home automation setup. Would be pretty entertaining to run a strip of LED lights and have them flash different ways depending on the data feed - perhaps going from red up to green (or whatever colors you fancy) pending where your rider is in the practice/race results.

Never really understood why MotoGP didn't try to establish a (better?) relationship with ESPN. It feels like every other sport worldwide has some presence on there, and their API is readily available and already utilized home automation wise.

But that's me in my bubble wanting all of the things.

  • Log in or register to post comments

In reply to Stats by ehtikhet

It was a test. I can't…

WaveyD1974
Site Supporter
1 year 4 months ago
Permalink

It was a test. I can't remember how many tracks and years. It was track by track for obvious reasons. If my memory serves me right it showed a decrease in overtaking but it also showed that from year to year it can go up or down drastically for any given track. Therefore, impossible to see a trend across the number of years I used, especially when sets of regs last whatever it is, five years ? That's five Sepangs with variable conditions. The PDFs are there on the site and therefore can be opened for Excel VB via adobe, can be slightly problematic. This was before the new site and the biggest headache was small or big variations year to year in the format of the session results. Meant to expand it to cover everything but free time got less. It is on a pc somewhere in the house. So will the images I put on a host. I'll have a look tomorrow.

  • Log in or register to post comments

In reply to Repeating the same consensus… by CTK

"Are you really going to sit there and tell me..."

Moto Mondo
Site Supporter
1 year 4 months ago
Permalink

Are you really going to sit there and tell me...that the rider's observations and opinions are a "consensus trope"? You have made some good points but other times...it seems you have read to much DFW.

  • Log in or register to post comments

In reply to Repeating the same consensus… by CTK

Quelle horreur!

Seven4nineR
Site Supporter
1 year 4 months ago
Permalink

 "Are you really going to sit here and tell me that CRT bikes and pay riders like Tito Rabat didn't make it "easier" to pass in the good old days? A lot of the complaints around MotoGP center around mob rule ("consensus") and rose tinted nostalgia."

Too funny that you think CRT was "ye olden tymes" But for the sake of correcting the illusion: the guys at the front never saw a CRT bike on track (save for Aleix Espargaro on his Forward/M1 hybrid with extra fuel) and certainly didn't have to worry about passing them.

Interestingly  Dorna were obviously concerned about possible embarrassment (quelle horreur!) and nobbled the CRT bikes such that the Aprila based CRT bikes had a lower spec RSV4 engines than even WSBK, they weren't even allowed to run the gear driven cams previously allowed but since banned in WSBK.. Prototype racing my ass. 

It's an interesting contrast to the WCM effort in the early 2000's. The powers that be could obviously envisage, if not the probability, the possibility of a relatively underfunded effort troubling the megadollar investment of the Factories and spun the rules appropriately. 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2003-06-05/harris-wcm-ban-upheld-by-governi…

https://www.roadracingworld.com/news/motogp-and-world-superbike-jonatha…

There's an old saying: just 'cos you've spent a lot of money doesn't mean you haven't built a lemon.

  • Log in or register to post comments

In reply to The push against tech in MotoGP is paradoxical by CTK

1. What is a prototype? 2…

David Emmett
Site Supporter
1 year 4 months ago
Permalink

1. What is a prototype?

2. How many technical limitations stop it from being a prototype series? # of cylinders? Liters of fuel? Type of combustion? Location of wheels?

3. Introducing restrictions under the "Alles was nicht verboten ist, ist erlaubt" principle stimulates innovation and engineering, rather than preventing it. Having a limitation to work around produces more creative solutions than just saying "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law". The reason we have ride-height devices and aero is because they locked down the electronics.

4. In a truly open, unlimited prototype series, the only factor that would count would be money. The richest factory would win, the others wouldn't bother. KTM, Aprilia, Suzuki quite explicitly stated that the reason they entered was because they didn't have the mountain to climb which free electronics created. They would never be able to catch up. Sure, Suzuki pulled out, but that had nothing to do with racing and everything to do with corporate politics.

5. Honda may have an aviation division but large Japanese corporations tend to silo their different divisions. Very little expertise transfers between divisions. There's also zero support between divisions, which is why Kawasaki Heavy Industries, one of the largest companies in Japan, is not racing in MotoGP. Has to be funded from motorcycle sales, and the bullet train and shipbuilding divisions have no desire to subsidize that.

6. All professional sport is first and foremost an entertainment product. The clue is in the word "professional". Someone has to pay. Unless there is a rich benefactor willing to throw millions at a sport just to indulge a hobby (see also soccer in Saudi Arabia, or the Lusail International Circuit) a sport has to be attractive to fans, so that TV companies and corporate sponsors want to fund it. That doesn't mean that the sport has to be solely manufactured drama a la WWE (or whatever US professional wrestling is called now). But entertainment has to be a significant factor and end goal.

This last part is important. Motorcycle racing as a sport was massively overfunded for a long while thanks to tobacco sponsorship. It's not that the tobacco industry cared one jot for racing, it's just that advertising was banned in the main markets, and sponsoring motorsports was its only outlet. When the tobacco money went away, the sport had to reinvent itself, and turn itself into an entertainment product.

Don't underestimate the amount of money tobacco sponsorship poured into the sport. I have heard from more than one old paddock hand that they bought a house with the money they earned shooting photos or writing press releases for tobacco sponsors.

  • Log in or register to post comments

In reply to 1. What is a prototype? 2… by David Emmett

Thanks David!!!

CTK
Site Supporter
1 year 4 months ago
Permalink

Thanks David!!!

  • Log in or register to post comments

In reply to 1. What is a prototype? 2… by David Emmett

prototype racing

fuipescar
1 year 4 months ago
Permalink

Re: points 1 and 2, and maintaining the "sustainability of the sport", this is probably just the beginning of a shift away from chasing top speed above all else.  Maybe we've reached the point where we're going fast enough.  If the latest and greatest technology isn't developed to go faster than yesterday but rather to go as fast as today albeit more efficiently or safer, it can still be a prototype series with bespoke machines made from drool-inducing next-gen unobtanium.

Mat Oxley wrote an entire book about how speed is the most modern luxury.  Maybe now that we've achieved these speeds we need to set our sights on other aspects of locomotion.

  • Log in or register to post comments

In reply to prototype racing by fuipescar

MotoGP is still trying to go…

David Emmett
Site Supporter
1 year 4 months ago
Permalink

MotoGP is still trying to go faster. But "faster" is defined as "taking a shorter time to do a complete lap of the circuit" rather than "highest number through the speed traps".

But I think you are on to something when you say we are reaching the limits. The faster we go, the more likely the bikes (and more importantly, the riders) are to reach the barriers if they crash.

  • Log in or register to post comments

Knock on to WSBK!?

slfish
1 year 4 months ago
Permalink

Curious to see link to WSBK. Downsizing MGP engines would risk MGP falling to similar times as WSBK if WSBK stick to current engine sizing. That would be a non-starter for MGP grid. 

  • Log in or register to post comments

In reply to Knock on to WSBK!? by slfish

Alternative viewpoint

iansn46
Site Supporter
1 year 4 months ago
Permalink

WSBK bikes are just about as fast on some tracks like PI where there is no real heavy braking anyway, the racing in WSBK has been outstanding as in Motogp. That's mainly due to the talent of the guys at the front making for incredibly tight racing. At most tracks the difference is only about 1s which you would not notice watching the two different classes racing. Racing is about excitement and having close finishes which is exactly what we are getting now.

What Dorna really need to do, is to take a side by side comparison of the current bikes, engine frame etc and run them side by side with and without aero (ie style old fairing) and see what that does to lap times. 2 of this years bikes fettled with and without aero and a test rider to run direct comparisons, each factory providing samples and riders. Set them up and run a mini race with them all. That would end the argument. Sometimes th factories are to blindied by their ambitions to be really  open to change, even if its going backwards to achieve the safety aims.

Moto 2 shows that even with the same bikes and the same frames (ie  regulated to death) there is seldom very tight racing at the front compared to WSBK and Motogp, one week someone wins and the next they are nowhere, apart from Acosta.  Moto 2 most weeks is not anywhere near as close or strategic as Moto 3.

I notice no mention at all about the effects of the sprint.This could be the subject of a full and detailed article for the end of season @David Emmett.

 

  • Log in or register to post comments

Nice one David, excellent…

Taffmeister
Site Supporter
1 year 4 months ago
Permalink

Nice one David, excellent interview.  



There's a source problem here that Corrado Cecchinelli has missed and that is the 'source problem'.  

Aerodynamics don't need policing if the bikes lose 20mph.

You can get the same power out of one bore and stroke as another - (given enough) time related.  In other words, take the bore to a smaller maximum and the new power graph will shadow the original power gains each season just a smidgeon lower and be back at the same point 1-2 seasons later and that isn't enough here.  



They agree - as I trust we all do -  the 800s were doing the same lap speeds in no time!  



Get the power right down, allow the technology to flourish and then your braking issues at 335kph disappear and we go back to a cross of today's issues and those from perhaps 2000.  Some things learnt though, can't now be unlearnt!  they are here to stay.  



oh ..... and a call for 500cc again.  It won't happen, accepted as it looks like we don't want to go back to the start again.  

  • Log in or register to post comments

Riders should demand more…

fuipescar
1 year 4 months ago
Permalink

Riders should demand more engineering and development focused on safety technology.  Think of all the gains made by relatively "simple" technology like improvements to race suits, air bags, etc.  Perhaps something can be devised that decreases rider rolling/flopping when they fall off at high speed.  Maybe alternative runoff materials or different types of gravel, addition of soft "baffles" in certain areas to slow bike and rider before hitting the wall, elastic catch nets, etc.  Crazy?  Maybe, but we need to get creative or the more expensive alternative is to replace old classic tracks with new, safer ones with worse views.  Think about it, from we've gone from hay bales to old tires to air fences.  In 70+ years that's about it.  Surely there are gains to be made in this area, but no team is directly tied to it financially so currently change is only at a snail's pace.

All teams could be required to contribute % of budget or some flat amount per year to pool for development of general safety technology - track runoff design, barrier technology, race suit protections, etc.

  • Log in or register to post comments

Donate to the Aspar Team's fund to provide aid to everyone affected by the devastating floods in Valencia.


Find MotoMatters on Bluesky and Mastodon

Support Simon Crafar's Riders for Dogs charity, and help rescued dogs find a better home.

Buy Neil Spalding's essential guide to the technology of MotoGP bikes, MotoGP Technology.

Recent comments

  • So true motomann 1 hour 22 minutes ago
  • Not falling cause he doesn’t need to find the limit  Gerrycollins 2 hours 51 minutes ago
  • At what age? Apical 3 hours 22 minutes ago
  • Senior Class nonlpb 9 hours 44 minutes ago
  • Guilty stefank 9 hours 44 minutes ago

All content copyright of MotoMatters.com unless otherwise stated. MotoGP is a trademark of Dorna Sports s.l. and MotoMatters.com is not associated with it.

Site hosted by