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Concessions For Honda And Yamaha: Can They Happen? And Will They Help?

By David Emmett | Thu, 29/Jun/2023 - 23:01

It is no secret that Honda and Yamaha are struggling in MotoGP at the moment. The first rider in the championship on a Japanese motorcycle is Monster Energy Yamaha's Fabio Quartararo in ninth place with 64 points, less than a third of the total of championship leader, Ducati Lenovo's Pecco Bagnaia. Honda and Yamaha are in fourth and fifth place in the manufacturer standings, the Monster Energy Yamaha team are in sixth in the team standings and the Repsol Honda team are dead last, behind the CryptoDATA RNF Aprilia team and the GasGas Factory Racing Tech3 team, both of who have been missing their best riders for most of the season. Things are not going well.

This is bad for MotoGP in a number of ways. To start with, it makes the sport look very lopsided. Ducati have been very successful so far this year, but the lack of competitive Hondas and Yamahas only exaggerates the extent to which the Italian factory has dominated. Ducatis have won all but one of the grand prix, and all but two of the sprint races. They have taken 34 of 48 possible podium places, or 71%, and nearly 52% of all places in the top ten.

It isn't just Ducati, of course. KTM and Aprilia are currently second and third in the manufacturer standings, and the Red Bull KTM Factory Racing Team is right on tail of the Ducati Lenovo Team in the team championship. Brad Binder has had two wins in sprint races in 2023, and at Jerez, both Binder and teammate Red Bull KTM Factory Racing teammate Jack Miller stood on the podium in the grand prix.

After Suzuki pulled out of MotoGP at the end of 2022, the Japanese manufacturers no longer seem like such a firm fixture in MotoGP. If they have no chance of success, the amount being spent on MotoGP becomes harder to justify within the company. Racing is a source of pride and identity for both Honda and Yamaha, especially at the grand prix level. But at some point, questions might be asked as to whether it is worth it.

At Assen, the first rumors started to emerge of Dorna wanting to address the current imbalance. There was talk of bringing in concessions for the struggling Japanese factories. When asked about this by Frank Weeink of Dutch TV broadcaster Ziggo Sport, Dorna Chief Sporting Officer Carlos Ezpeleta acknowledged the problems for the Japanese manufacturers.

"Honda and Yamaha are intrinsic parts of the championship, and they've been here for a very long time, so it's our responsibility that they feel that it's important to continue to participate in MotoGP," Ezpeleta told Ziggo. "Of course from a sporting side it seems like the Europeans have bridged the gap if not reversed it, but the championship is very dynamic to look at how we can help manufacturers in any specific way, in any point."

Dorna was certainly open to taking a look at the concessions system, and finding ways of improving it, Ezpeleta said. "In the regulations as of now, Honda and Yamaha would not have concessions next year, because both Honda and Yamaha had podiums in the Americas GP in Austin, but it doesn't mean that we're not open to modifying that. I think that the concessions system as it is now is probably maybe outdated, because the way it was envisioned was about welcoming new manufacturers in, and when they were going to lose concessions, rather than assisting manufacturers when they needed some help and regaining concessions."

Then this week, speaking to Damià Aguilar of Catalunya Radio, Ezpeleta expressed a firmer commitment to changing the way concessions operated. "Dorna's official position is that the concessions system needs to be updated." Ezpeleta pointed out that Honda and Yamaha had been considerate and open to the other manufacturers a decade ago when the concessions system was introduced. And that system had helped Ducati, KTM, and Aprilia reach the point where they were now dominating MotoGP.

As laudable as such sentiments may be, actually updating the concessions is not up to Dorna. The concessions system is laid out in section 2.4.2 of the FIM Grand Prix regulations. The most important part of that section is the first number, 2. Chapter 2 is title "Technical Regulations", and by contract, the MotoGP manufacturers, through their representative body, the MSMA, have a veto over the technical rules. Even if Dorna, IRTA, and the FIM, the three other members of MotoGP's rule-making body, the Grand Prix Commission, propose a change to the technical rules, the MSMA can unilaterally kill such a proposal.

The catch, of course, is that the veto applies only when the MSMA is unanimous. In the current case, when all five MotoGP manufacturers agree to reject the proposal put in front of them.

Could the MSMA reject the proposal? That is certainly a concern for Dorna. "That's a high level conversation with the manufacturers, all five of them, and the championship and the FIM, so that's where we are now," Carlos Ezpeleta told Ziggo.

The signs of resistance are already there. Speaking to GPOne.com's Matteo Aglio, Ducati Sporting Director pointedly highlighted the fact that Dorna had spoken to journalists before conferring with the manufacturers. No proposal had been made at the last meeting of the Grand Prix Commission on the Thursday before Assen, Ciabatti pointed out.

It had taken hard work for Ducati to become the dominant force in MotoGP, Ciabatti insisted. "We, like Aprilia and KTM, got where we are by working our ***es off and following the regulations, while the two Japanese manufacturers couldn't keep up," the Ducati boss said. Ducati might be open to changes to the concessions system, but such changes would have to be generic, and apply to anyone who fell behind enough to require them, rather than tailored to the current needs of a particular manufacturer.

What's more, any change to the concessions system must be perceived as being fair. "We are open to evaluating a proposal, as long as it takes into account that it shouldn't excessively benefit those who haven't done their jobs as well as others," Ciabatti told GPOne.com.

There is a certain irony in Ducati raising objections to the concessions. The concessions system as it exists today came about largely in response to Gigi Dall'Igna's decision in 2014 to enter the factory team as a so-called Open Class entry. This was the successor to the CRT class, which helped to expand the grid with tuned production-based engines in prototype chassis. (For a fuller history of the change, see this story I wrote about the revolutionary decade in MotoGP, from 2009-2019).

Three months after joining Ducati as the head of Ducati Corse, Gigi Dall'Igna announced at the Sepang test in 2014 that Ducati would be racing under Open Class rules for the 2014 season. This would allow them to develop the engine during the season, allow then 12 instead of 5 engines a season, and allow Ducati unlimited testing. However, they would be forced to use the spec Magneti Marelli ECU software and hardware.

In response to this announcement, Dorna hastily introduced a new class of entry, a manufacturer with concessions, which allowed similar freedoms, which the manufacturer would lose as they became more successful. Ducati, in turn, offered help with the Magneti Marelli software. These rules were then formalized at the start of the following contract period in 2016, when MotoGP switched to spec ECU software and hardware and Michelin tires.

Thanks to the concessions Ducati had in 2014 and 2015, Ducati went from struggling to be in the top eight to being regular podium contenders, getting their first win in 2016. In 2017, Andrea Dovizioso pushed Marc Marquez all the way to the final race at Valencia for the title, winning six races along the way.

Both Aprilia and KTM have similar stories. Aprilia went from tail enders to championship contenders by long and persistent work, and the ability to introduce new engines and keep testing through the season. It took until 2022 for Aleix Espargaro to win a race, but the Aprilia RS-GP is now a very competitive machine. KTM, likewise, went from struggling for top tens to winning races in 2020, and after a difficult season in 2022, are now right back in contention, and a highly prized seat for potential newcomers.

So it might be seen as churlish if the European manufacturers were to refuse to give the Japanese factories a chance to catch up. Aprilia, Ducati, and KTM may point to the fact, highlighted by Carlos Ezpeleta, that the Japanese factories have already lost their chance of concessions for 2024. With Alex Rins' victory in Austin, Honda forfeited their shot at concessions. Fabio Quartararo's third place did the same for Yamaha.

It is worth reiterating here that only results scored in the Sunday grand prix races count toward concessions. In theory, a factory could win every single sprint race, yet still gain concessions (or not lose them, if they had them) if they didn't manage to get on the podium on Sundays. There is a non-zero chance of a rider winning every sprint race and becoming champion despite not getting on the podium in a single grand prix.

Finishing first in all 20 sprint races and fourth in all 20 grand prix would net you 500 points out of a theoretical total of 740. Extrapolate Pecco Bagnaia's points total of 194 after the eighth round at Assen and he is on course for a total of 485 points. That, in itself is reason for addressing the concessions system. It is another area where the sprint race has created unintended consequences.

Of course, the bigger question is whether concessions would make any difference to the Japanese factories. The evidence so far is that the issue is not one of the amount of testing Honda and Yamaha do, nor their ability to update their engines throughout the year (though in both cases, that might help). The bigger issue is their approach to racing, development, and above all, risk.

Alberto Puig acknowledged as much when I asked him about it in the press conference held on Sunday morning, after Marc Marquez announced he would not be racing in the Dutch TT that day. "The European manufacturers in their recent years were very aggressive," Puig said. "They took a lot of risks. Risk means that you can make mistakes, but they accept the mistakes and probably the Japanese tradition is more conservative and with the new regulations, they should [take risks] probably, based on the results. Because it's not so difficult to see the results are the parameter or the indicator of what's going on."

The problem was one of how the Japanese factories approached racing, Puig said. "So it's clear that they have to probably change a little bit the approach. I mean they have very, very good things. But probably they have to change the approach and probably be more reactive than they used to be. True is that it's more difficult to be fast or react fast if you are in Japan than if you are in Europe. But finally, I think what you said, it’s like this. I mean we have to try to be faster and react faster."

It may seem that Honda, for example, has been more willing to take risks recently. At the end of last year, we saw HRC bring a new swingarm produced by Kalex. And at the Jerez test, a frame produced by Kalex made its debut on the Honda RC213V. But the process by which they reached the Honda garages is not as radical as it looks from the outside.

The swingarm and frame were designed to Honda specifications, and produced by Kalex to those specs. Once produced, they were flown to Japan to be put on a chassis dyno and stretched, squeezed, rotated and vibrated to be sure that the parts were within spec and would not break when put under load. Only then were they handed to the Honda test team, just in time for the Jerez test.

Contrast that with KTM. The Austrian factory has a 3D metal printer which they take to the track. If the engineering team believe that a particular part needs adjusting, they can make that change in a CAD model, and print the part ready to be tried the next morning.

That may be an extreme example, but there are a thousand different parallels to that process. The Japanese approach is to design, verify, test, reverify, retest, and only hand those parts off to the contracted riders when they are certain they will both work and provide some benefit. The European approach is to bring stuff to the track, give it to the riders to test, keep it if it works or throw it away if it is a disaster.

Ducati, in particular, has been incredibly smart in they way they use the Pramac satellite team as a testbed for development. Johann Zarco's bike currently, and Jack Miller's bike when he was in the Pramac squad, is consistently the most interesting bike on the grid. Last year, Zarco was testing the front ride-height device, before it was banned. In 2018, Miller was the first rider to try Ducati's holeshot device, and then the ride-height device, those parts only being handed off to the factory bikes once Ducati were sure they worked.

By contrast, Japanese factories have regarded satellite teams as a profit center rather than an R&D testbed. Though both Alex Rins and Takaaki Nakagami have 2023-spec bikes, they have older frames, only getting new parts when the factory riders are convinced they work, and HRC has produced enough parts. When Yamaha had satellite bikes, the principle was to wheel the factory bikes into the satellite garage at the end of the season for the satellite team to use the following year.

This, then, is where the Japanese factories must change. Concessions may or may not help Honda and Yamaha improve, but they can only test if the factory brings new parts. Shortening the period from design to testing would already be a huge step. Shortening the period from design to racing would be even bigger.

What Honda and Yamaha also need to understand is that MotoGP has changed radically since 2019. Aerodynamic has gone from a small addition to a central part of the design philosophy. Ducati, KTM, and Aprilia are designing their motorcycles with aerodynamics as an integral part of the overall package. Honda and Yamaha are designing racing motorcycles, then adding on wings to try to improve downforce.

There are signs of progress from the Japanese manufacturers. At Assen, Stefan Bradl told us that he had three tests lined up for July and August, at Misano and Jerez. And Yamaha team manager Maio Meregalli told me for the Paddock Pass Podcast Paddock Notes show that the team had pushed for an extra test for Cal Crutchlow, and Yamaha Japan had agreed to organize it.

There is still a long way to go for Yamaha and Honda. It is far from certain that Dorna can persuade the European factories to change the concessions system in time for the 2024 season. And it even further from certain that more testing and engine development are all that is standing between the Japanese factories and success.

If Yamaha and Honda are to be competitive again, they need to radically revise their approach to MotoGP, to development, and to racing. Changing cultures is a massively more difficult proposition than changing parts of a motorcycle.

In this, there is a lesson to be had from history. In 1953, Honda founder Soichiro Honda decided that the factory that bore his name should go racing, and chose the 1954 Isle of Man TT as the race where Honda would make its grand prix debut.

In preparation for this, Honda sent rider Mikio Omura and engineer Toshiji Baba to an international road race in São Paulo, Brazil. Omura was up against European bikes with twice the horsepower and much more top speed. The Japanese rider finished thirteenth out of 25 in the race.

That experience duly chastened Soichiro Honda. The company founder was proud that Omura had finished the race, but was now all too aware of the scale of the challenge ahead. On March 20th, 1954, Soichiro Honda published a declaration that the factory would be entering the Isle of Man TT that year. In it, he included the following section:

"Now, however, reports on the recent international motorcycle race held in São Paulo have provided me with detailed information on the situation in the countries of Europe and America. I had thought that I was seeing the world with a fair degree of realism, without being caught up in fixed ideas, but now I realize that, after all, I have been blinded by my excessive feeling for Japan in its present situation. Even now, the world is advancing at tremendous speed.

Conversely, however, as I have always felt, I am filled with an abundant, unshakable confidence that I can win. The fighting spirit that is my nature will no longer allow me to continue turning away.

Now that we are equipped with a production system in which I have absolute confidence, the time of opportunity has arrived. I have reached the firm decision to enter the TT Races next year."

If Honda, and indeed Yamaha, can recover some of that spirit, there may be hope for them yet.


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2023
MotoGP
Assen, The Netherlands
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Comments

Dorna and its dilemna

madison64
Site Supporter
1 year 8 months ago
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Man, that is a lot that needs to change to get Honda and Yamaha back to being competitive; changing corporate culture being the biggest of the hurdles. I can see Honda stepping up, but you've got to wonder if Yamaha want to go down this path. They've already bailed on a satellite team and motorcycle sales are not really their core business any longer. Dorna has its hands full for the next couple years in light of this conundrum and the fact that  Moto 3 currently provides the absolute most enjoyable racing on weekend, rather than the big boys in the "maim event."

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Great Piece, thanks DE

St. Stephen
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1 year 8 months ago
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On the one hand I'm concerned that the two remaining Japanese manufacturers will drop out, following Suzuki (and Kaw...).

On the other hand, do I not enjoy watching Pecco vs. Bez vs. Jorge? The manufacturer doesn't matter...much. The crowds so far this season have been very good.

You (DE) make very good points about how quickly the manufacturers get a new idea implemented--or don't!--and how they view satellite teams. More teams means more data, but also more riders to move up--and this also is the same for selecting the best engineers, team managers, etc. from the satellites. 

You didn't mention budget though. Which is really a placeholder for commitment. Do the Japanese have the commitment?

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Complex

breganzane
Site Supporter
1 year 8 months ago
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Great article DE, enjoyed that.  It's a complex problem alright.  I wonder a bit about Honda, isn't the bike effectively made by HRC, and isn't HRC a somewhat independent subsidiary of the parent Honda MoCo?  Should this not give them some ability to 'run lean'?  If Honda give HRC the independence to operate as they please, and Ken Kawauchi is given control of HRC (or at least the MotoGP project) in the same manner as Gigi was given it for Ducati Corse, then in theory at least HRC can run almost as lean/fast as their European counterparts.  Yamaha seems an altogether more grey area, but HRC would seem to have the structure in place to function well, even if it does not presently do so.  I really feel for Ken Kawauchi every time he appears on screen, I don't think he's been given the sort of free reign that Gigi got.

I absolutely remember reading articles on this site when the wings started sprouting 5-10 years back saying that an aero war was something to be avoided because Honda would simply outspend everyone and dominate.  Ho ho ho.

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HRC aren't firing on all four

v4racer
Site Supporter
1 year 8 months ago
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Shades of how the Japanese motorcycle industry wiped out the British motorcycle industry because the Brits couldn't innovate...

You would think that a company that builds and sells jet aircraft could easily keep up with Ducati when it comes to aero.

Concessions for HRC... who saw that coming?

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In reply to HRC aren't firing on all four by v4racer

The road bike businesses are fine

CTK
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1 year 8 months ago
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Honda and especially Yamaha are doing super well with selling road bikes, despite their abysmal showings in MotoGP. That only further brings the value of staying in MotoGP in question.

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Agree with fellow…

spongedaddy
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1 year 8 months ago
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Agree with fellow subscribers. Great article, David. Vey enjoyable. Thank you.

So Kalex did not contribute to the design of the Honda swingarm and frame, and only manufactured them? I wonder what Alex Baumgaertel's perspective is about that. Why not let Kalex be creative and design the parts? Yeah, sure, all their experience is in Moto2 with engines producing around half the horsepower of a Motogp engine, and there are no wings or ride height devices on Moto2 bikes, but maybe the people at Kalex have some knowledge in design that could help HRC.

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In reply to Agree with fellow… by spongedaddy

I also heard...

breganzane
Site Supporter
1 year 8 months ago
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... perhaps on one of the 'other' podcasts, that Kalex has received absolutely zero feedback on how the frames are being received.  So it's not really a collaborative venture as I seem to recall it was for Ducati and FTR for the first ally-framed D16s.  I presume Ducati paid for FTRs expertise in both design and manufacture for the initial period then brought it back in-house once they were sufficiently knowledgeable.  Very different story for HRC, who have been making them for decades but just recently can't seem to make it work.  The fundamental problems of the RCV seem more in the weight distribution and geometry (and electronics, aero, ride height) rather than just fabrication, so getting someone else to make one to your design doesn't achieve much as we have seen.

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Concessions? Really?

Seven4nineR
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1 year 8 months ago
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Concessions? Really? It was only half a season ago that Yamaha were still the reigning Motogp champions and lead most of last season’s championship.

 

Before the previous round Fabio was also in front of all the Aprilia’s, with Aleix only overtaking him after a DNF at Assen (again).

Rin’s win at COTA (Fabio/Yamaha on the podium too) and at the time we were calling it a walk-up win for Marc if he’d been able to race, Marc’s pole at Portugal….

Really, how do you go from that….to talking about concessions in the space of a few races? I mean, even if they’d been been given concessions at the start of the season, wouldn’t Rin’s win have rendered them null and void?

It just seems like extraordinarily preferential treatment. Marquez and Quartararo were seen as genuine championship contenders by many leading in to the season…..a half a season later they are being gifted a helping hand? Why not Aprilia? They have been equally invisible.

Sorry, it just seems like all teams are treated equally but some are more equal than others.

 

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In reply to Concessions? Really? by Seven4nineR

Agreed. It does appear very…

WaveyD1974
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1 year 8 months ago
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Agreed. It does appear very preferential. I think it's a knee-jerk reaction, not to Ducati's bike but to Ducati's teams. One bike being faster than the others is normal. Managing to put eight bikes on the grid, all of which are capable of beating every non-Ducati is not. As mentioned previously, it's bloody impressive but it does present a season long cliff for any manufacturer to fall off if they are not in the Ducati driven ball park. I think the gap between all of the teams is small. 

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In reply to Agreed. It does appear very… by WaveyD1974

Only for MM not HRC

slfish
1 year 8 months ago
Permalink

Let’s be clear. This discussion is all about MM. ONLY happening because Dorna’s star MM can’t finish a race. HRC involved only because MM rides a Honda.  If MM were on the podium, Honda were literally killing its other riders, and Yamaha were no where, Dorna wouldn’t be doing a thing. MM moves to another bike it will be dropped. 

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In reply to Only for MM not HRC by slfish

Well Rossi has retired so…

WaveyD1974
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1 year 8 months ago
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Well Rossi has retired so.....

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In reply to Well Rossi has retired so… by WaveyD1974

MM a distraction vs required

slfish
1 year 8 months ago
Permalink

Does the series need MM? If someone was winning every race and had a points lead like Bautista in SBK or Max V in F1, maybe, to avoid a boring series runaway But currently. No. Not at all. The series is very competitive, the racing wo/ Marc has been great. The young guns are exciting to watch and gaining fans at every race. The MM sun is setting just as Rossi's set.

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In reply to MM a distraction vs required by slfish

It's pretty tame without…

WaveyD1974
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1 year 8 months ago
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It's pretty tame without Marc. That might be a good thing though.

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Really, Alberto?

Ibis117
Site Supporter
1 year 8 months ago
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"True is that it's more difficult to be fast or react fast if you are in Japan than if you are in Europe."

How is it true?

Do Honda and Yamaha only communicate by sailing ship, or camel train down the silk road?

Do they not have telephones and the internet in Japan?

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In reply to Really, Alberto? by Ibis117

The other side of the world…

WaveyD1974
Site Supporter
1 year 8 months ago
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The other side of the world. eight hours on the clock. Despite much belief in modern frictionless borders things do take time, sometimes longer sometimes shorter. Ducati, Aprilia, KTM could, if needed, use a taxi. 

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In reply to The other side of the world… by WaveyD1974

HRC aren't eight hours from a solution.

Ibis117
Site Supporter
1 year 8 months ago
Permalink

Honda's  (and Yamaha's) woes aren't being affected by an eight hour time delay, if they still have the same problems as last October at the end of June.

If the Japanese factories don't keep someone to answer emails at night time, I wouldn't be surprised if no one's reading them until 08:00 Tokyo time on Monday.

You'd think at least someone from the race department would be watching the race, if nothing else.

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In reply to HRC aren't eight hours from a solution. by Ibis117

Sure, I'm sure since last…

WaveyD1974
Site Supporter
1 year 8 months ago
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Sure, I'm sure since last October they have done things. The eight hours can be a pain but not a huge one although it can often add a day to decisions. Start work, send email, wait until well after midday before the person receiving the email in Europe starts work or even wakes up. They consider, reply and it's mid afternoon in Japan. Conference calls just before you finish work. There's no point answering emails unless you are the responsible person. At one extreme you have KTM who could print parts at the track. You have teams that can make a part, put it in the back of their car and drive to the track. Then you have teams which might need to fly it +12 hours...after they've managed to agree. If they moved to Europe it would not suddenly make the bike better. It would make life easier when it comes to making the bike better. It's a lag on the process. It's obviously easier to do it today than it was 50 years ago but distance still counts. There's a disconnect, a remoteness, a two seperate teams feeling.

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That much difference?

B.Mac
Site Supporter
1 year 8 months ago
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The concession thing seems to have started after speculation that Honda and Yamaha might do a Sukuki on Dorna and walk away when their contracts end soon.  Is Dorna in a panic?  If the Japanese factories were 3 seconds off pace then concessions would be worth considering but, looking at the time sheets, there are tenth's and hundredths in it.  Hardly a chasm.

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In reply to That much difference? by B.Mac

Agreed. It just looks very…

WaveyD1974
Site Supporter
1 year 8 months ago
Permalink

Agreed. It just looks very bad because the field is very tight and there are many Ducati. 

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Short memories

Seven4nineR
Site Supporter
1 year 8 months ago
Permalink

Let’s back up the bus a bit: so we’re just supposed to forget that Honda filled the first 5 places of the ‘99 championship? The first rider on a different manufacturer scored less than half of Doohan’s points tally.

Too far back? What about 2014, with Honda winning the first 10 GP’s of the season? Actually, not just Honda, one single rider. In comparison, here we are in 2023, we’ve had 3 different manufacturers win races and 5 different riders.

So what exactly is the issue that has the alarm bells ringing? What is it that has not happened before that is happening now? I mean substitute Honda/Yamaha for Ducati/KTM and this season is absolutely no different to most in the past.

 

Substitute

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In reply to Short memories by Seven4nineR

I think you mean 1998. In…

WaveyD1974
Site Supporter
1 year 8 months ago
Permalink

I think you mean 1998. In 1999 Doohan had his last 'big one'. 1999 had 3 manufacturers in the top 5. 

it's all very true. There have been periods when manufacturers have dominated. I think if there is a problem now it's about perception. Short of an all out civil war within the Ducati camp there will be no war ? The three wise men will let the children play as long as they play nicely. I hope that's not the case but can't blame Ducati for putting their interests before 'the show'. Like it or lump it Marc and Fabio would not be friendly foes. Look at Brad. It feels a lot different when Brad's battling with any of the Ducati riders. Dorna want to see Marc, Fabio and Peco fighting like Marc, Dovi, Lorenzo, Stoner and Rossi used to fight. Me too but i'm not sure engineering that situation will not come with some unintended downsides. 

 

The championship has to remain attractive for manufacturers. That's important for Ducati too. There's no glory in only  beating yourself

 

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In reply to I think you mean 1998. In… by WaveyD1974

Oops! Yes, ‘98….too many…

Seven4nineR
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1 year 8 months ago
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Oops! Yes, ‘98….too many beers under the bridge. Thanks for the correction.👍

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In reply to Oops! Yes, ‘98….too many… by Seven4nineR

I had to check because my…

WaveyD1974
Site Supporter
1 year 8 months ago
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I had to check because my memory is...was....wherever I left it...whatever it was.

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Charitable foundation...

Marclin
Site Supporter
1 year 8 months ago
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While all of the hand-wringing is taking place, one needs to keep in mind that Dorna is not running a charity. If God forbid MotoGP turns into a Euro-centric series, they will be (are?) in dire straits. Money talks, BS walks...

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One manufacturer's ceiling is another manufacturer's floor

isoia
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1 year 8 months ago
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"... it makes the sport look very lopsided." - "Look!?" Doesn't allowing Ducati to put as many as 8 bikes on the starting line make the sport lopsided?

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In reply to One manufacturer's ceiling is another manufacturer's floor by isoia

Is Ducati filling grid slots…

GSP
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1 year 8 months ago
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Is Ducati filling grid slots to the exclusion of others? I think not. They've obviously been able to make the business case to supply those bikes. Bikes that can win--all of them.

Most of the "problems" of the other manufacturers are due to their own lack of imagination. 

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In reply to One manufacturer's ceiling is another manufacturer's floor by isoia

Limit bikes for any one marquee?

Merlin
1 year 8 months ago
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I could to see a limit on the number of bikes fielded by any one manufacturer. 6 bikes total? 25% of the grid? I'm a long-time Ducati fan (through the lean years, too), owner, former (slow) racer. Doesn't help Honda or Yamaha in the short term, but given the principle of controls to level the racing (tires, ECUs, etc), does this seem like a reasonable corollary?

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In reply to Limit bikes for any one marquee? by Merlin

Can't imagine going to…

WaveyD1974
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1 year 8 months ago
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Can't imagine going to Gresini or VR46 and asking them to use a bike they don't want. All three Ducati customer teams have scored wins in the last teo years. 'Sorry, it's ok, you can have a Yamaha'....blood on the floor. 

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In reply to Limit bikes for any one marquee? by Merlin

Dorna’s dream nog so long…

Matonge
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1 year 8 months ago
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Dorna’s dream nog so long ago was having 4 bikes per manufacturer. All of them capable of winning, all of them ridden by a a rider capable of winning.

Suzuki pulling out, the RNF squad jumping ship and Gigi’s mastermind have wrecked that dream.



Anyway, the problem would always be the independent teams switching to the best bike(s).

 

 

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Yamaha Europe test team?

Apical
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1 year 8 months ago
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Whatever happened to Yamaha's European test team starring Cal Crutchlow? Remember it was going to be great! The tuning forks were gunna be harmonising, the bike development was going to be better. 

Lyn, Cal, and the team at Gerno de Lesmo in Italy. Where Ducati and Aprilia operate from. Where are the benefits of that program? Did Japan listen? Is the M1 better? Maybe a little.  Definitely not enough for even Fabio Quartararo. Yamaha does a HRC Honda and delivers more power and less grip. Now in a bike that's harder to ride. 

In four weeks time we will see. I'm hoping for a better Yamaha. 

HRC and Alberto Puig I don't expect to be more competitive when we get to Silverstone.

I hope the weather will be better than Donington this weekend. 

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Comments

St. Stephen
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1 year 8 months ago
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Great series of comments on this issue. I wish DE had not removed the Like button a few years ago. Now I have to comment just to say in the most boring way possible that someone said something I thought was intelligent.

Often there will be a series of comments leaning one way, but a single contrarian got all the Likes--that feedback is gone, wish it was still here. The opinion of those who comment is not always the opinion of all subscribers.

Not sure how others feel about this but I would like (see what I did there?) the opportunity to say I agree with a particular opinion without typing endlessly . Even Shrink's!

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In reply to Comments by St. Stephen

Like

brettak
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1 year 8 months ago
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Like

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In reply to Comments by St. Stephen

Like

spongedaddy
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1 year 8 months ago
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Like

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In reply to Comments by St. Stephen

Popular does not equal accurate.

Seven4nineR
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1 year 8 months ago
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Not a fan of “likes” at all.

Just tell it like you see it, comment as you think appropriate….but posting for popularity, or assuming popular comments are in any way correct or accurate is a trap.

 

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In reply to Popular does not equal accurate. by Seven4nineR

Agreed.

larryt4114
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1 year 8 months ago
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Yes.

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Perhaps what IS occurring is…

Motoshrink
Site Supporter
1 year 8 months ago
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Perhaps what IS occurring is a better place to focus than what should be/what I want?

(Things are not as they should be and far from my preference and I have been bitterly angry. We know why and how it happened, three main Dorna mistakes appear central. It has all been said. Ok, now what?)

Dorna looks to be taking action to shift direction mildly. They are not signaling that adding two more White KTMs to the Red and Orange ones will be supported. The rulebook is a living thing that evolves, here comes an update to the Concessions rules. This could support Japanese manufacturers' development pace.

Savory? Fair? Preferable?

After the handful of disgusting Dorna errors, loss of Suzuki, and 2017 thru 2021 MotoGP beauty tossed for a Ducati Cup? Perhaps a bitter cure is in order. The Dorna fostered problems have been as exhausting as upsetting and I have run out of energy for it. Just please stop screwing it up and correct course.

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and...I Like your Likes!

St. Stephen
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1 year 8 months ago
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;-)

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In reply to and...I Like your Likes! by St. Stephen

Thumbs up

Rob@Orewa_NZ
Site Supporter
1 year 8 months ago
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Thumbs up

- or does that make me a contrarian?

:-)

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Covid

Dieterly
1 year 8 months ago
Permalink

Who would ever imagined banning people from going to work like the Japanese, and many other misinformed governments did during covid would have consequences down the road???

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In reply to Covid by Dieterly

Wobbly soapbox

Seven4nineR
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1 year 8 months ago
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Funny, I vividly recall Italians “confined to barracks”and singing across/around the apartment blocks while isolated during Covid, as fully informed governments quite rightly protected their populace (first priority for most governments = citizen safety, except places like the US with a death rate leading the world… congrats, the USA is still a winner!) yet still the Italians kick arse. 



Austria/KTM went through lockdown,

Who won Motogp during Covid? Suzuki and Yamaha.

Step down off your soapbox, mate.

 

 

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Fantasy world

Dieterly
1 year 8 months ago
Permalink

Your memory is failing you… That isolation you are describing in regards to Italy was very short lived, as opposed to Japan and a few other Austroasian countries, where if you had been unlucky having to visit during covid, you would have witnessed visitors being locked up in hotel rooms, empty streets and closed businesses, people not being allowed to go to work, of course not being able to perform your work to 100% will have an affect as developing a winning MotoGP bike, some people arguing a very large effect   

Sorry mate, US didn’t have the highest covid death rate, no matter how much you would like that to be the truth.

 



 

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In reply to Fantasy world by Dieterly

Sorry, but...

Rob@Orewa_NZ
Site Supporter
1 year 8 months ago
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Bit of a tangent from motorcycle racing, but thanks to the lockdowns, there are a lot more people around to enjoy the racing. Highest rate of deaths or not, the inconvenient truth is that the U.S. certainly rated up there as compared with other countries such as here in New Zealand, where Covid and the resulting inconveniences were taken seriously by an overwhelming proportion of the population, and politicians of all stripes. An economy, and winning motorcycles can be rebuilt, people can't.

Anyway, back to MotoGP. Cheers

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In reply to Sorry, but... by Rob@Orewa_NZ

Well said. Selective memory…

WaveyD1974
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1 year 8 months ago
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Well said. Selective memory is always the shortest. 

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